The Future of H-1B under the Next President

Over the years of watching the H-1B work visa situation, I’ve seen many people, both journalists and ordinary citizens, say that H-1B would become an election issue. I’ve countered that it won’t become an issue, because the affected American workers haven’t organized. No pressure, thus no issue. That seems to be the case this year as well.

Granted, Trump did draw some attention to H-1B during the primaries, causing some of the other Republican candidates to move somewhat away from their previous support of the visa. But once Trump sealed up the nomination, we’ve heard very little about the issue from either Trump or his party. There was ust one very fleeting reference to it during last week’s convention, at least in the speeches I watched.

During the Democratic primaries, the H-1B issue never came up in a single debate. Even my candidate, Bernie Sanders, was usually pretty mum about it, except in one speech he made near Disneyland late in the campaign (referring to the Disney H-1B scandal).

Michael Bloomberg did mention H-1B in his speech this evening — as a way to criticize Trump, who has admitted to hiring H-1Bs in his businesses. He accused Trump of hypocrisy — an incredible statement by Bloomberg, in view of his fervent public support for H-1B, including heading an organization that advocates for the visa, and of course in view of the fact that his own business hires lots of H-1Bs. In fact, I just did a quick check of the employer-sponsored green card data of the last 15 years, and found that 91 contained the word “Trump” — while 2087 of them contained “Bloomberg.” Oh, well, at least Bloomberg brought up the issue, which is more than the Democrats have been doing.

Recently, though, Hillary was asked about H-1B. She in fact did indicate sympathy, but made allusions to countering “economic arguments,” possibly referring to the work of people like Giovanni Peri who claim that H-1B is a net job creator. Giovanni has enormous credibility in the Obama White House, and by extension the Democratic Party. That credibility is misguided and naive (or maybe just convenient), in my view, but I think it’s fair to say that Hillary believes that “economic argument,” and I believe the IT worker who accused her of treating victims of H-1B as “collateral damage” was right on point.

As has been noted, Clinton has a long history of active support for the “Infosyses,” the firms that hire H-1Bs and then rent them out to other employers, including Disney. The other day, top Democratic Party figure Ed Rendell said unequivocably that we need H-1B because of a STEM labor shortage, in spite of ovewhelming evidence to the contrary. Another major party figure, Leon Panetta, has a daughter who is an official in IEEE-USA, which has pushed for Staple a Green Card (see below). Hillary’s running mate, Tim Kaine, supports the notorious I-Squared Act, which would drastically raise the H-1B cap. And as even Hillary admitted, she wants to use H-1B as a wedge to get the Republicans to support amnesty for the illegals.

Worst of all, Trump and Clinton actually agree on one crucial aspect of foreign tech worker policy — Staple a Green Card, a proposal to give automatic green cards to foreign STEM students earning grad degrees in the U.S. As I have explained before, if Staple in enacted, it really won’t matter what happens with H-1B; even if Congress were to seriously clip the wings of the Infosyses (won’t happen anyway), Disney, SCE, Abbott etc. will just hire the Staple workers. In other words, no matter which candidate wins the presidency, he/she will support Staple. This should be a very sobering thought to everyone who is concerned about the foreign tech worker issue.

If U.S. techies really did organize, I believe their first priority should be to try to derail Staple.

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75 thoughts on “The Future of H-1B under the Next President

  1. Norm, Your assessment is very depressing. Just yesterday I suggested to my engineer SIL that he discourage my DGD and DGS from engineering even though it is in their genes.

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      • Funny story, I am an indian and my gastroenterologist (an Indian as well) was lamenting the fact that he let his son choose CS as a major. He came to realize teh H1-B scam only when his kid reached senior year and that they don’t have the same licensing protection that doctors enjoy. He was like, my second son is definitely going for pre-med. So there it is, haha. It’s a messed up world alright.

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          • What really ticks me off about this is all of us have proven that we only create about 130,000 computer jobs in America each year and there are only about 4 million of them here in America (yes, we don’t know how many have been moved offshore).

            Meanwhile, our kids are sold this bill of goods by our government and our schools that they need to major in computer science as there are millions of those jobs unfilled.

            Meanwhile our kids are left owning 100,000 dollars for a worthless piece of paper that they will never be able to pay working at a convenience store (if they can find a job at a convenience store as most of them seem to be owned by foreigners).

            I myself tried getting the degree until I realized that at my age (58), my resume was just going into the circular file which left me owing about 25,000 in student loans and now I’m having to make the decision, do I pay the student loans or do I continue to try and put a roof over my head.

            So yes, I feel for the kids, be they Indian, or American, or any other nationality that are being sold this bill of crap.

            Liked by 1 person

          • And sadly, a lot of American kids, not aware that the CS shortage is a lie, also go down that path.

            Apologies to Norm, but maybe we need a severe shortage in US CS enrollment. Maybe the yahoos in Congress would realize there was a problem that has national security consequences.

            I’m encouraging tech oriented kids to get advanced tech degrees in other fields, with CS as a nice-to-have, supporting skill.

            Liked by 1 person

      • The H1-B is a disaster for American kids, Do you think all H1-B guys are specialized in CS, That’s a your dream. Do you know how Indian companies are filing H1-B, They file one who completed 2-3 years in that reputed company not even any specialized area, he/she will got filed. Because this is a lottery. (Another reason once they got H1-B they never leave the company soon) So 70-75% H1-B’s are not qualified professionals. These Indian companies are cheating Americans and these Indian kids. I worked for an Indian Company for a transition project, in my team 12-15 People and there is only 2-3 persons can come to US, but 10 of them have H1-B. So what is going to happen, one who more impressed their manager, they are coming to US(its mostly regionalism). Most professionals are coming by Business visa and work 6 months and leave, and they use L1 visa too. We think nobody cant trick us, but these companies using 1000’s times tricky what we and cheat us. If lack of tech’s no H1-B. give green card and bring them only qualified professionals. that’s not going to happen.

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    • If your SIL loses his engineering job then this should discourage your DGD and DGS from engineering. A talented friend of mine lost his engineering job at the age of 37, some nine years ago. The family is surviving on his wife’s meager income. None of their kids are going to a four year college.

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  2. I believe our best chance to influence Trump, who has been all over the map on H-1B, is to write Sen. Jeff Sessions of Alabama about our concerns, since he seems to have written Trump’s plank on immigration and has been a consistent supporter of our view.

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    • I’ve written sessions and those that say that they have his ear and those who are on his staff numerous times with zero results.

      Folks, Mr. Matloff is correct.
      We need a lobbyist in Washington DC who is paid for with the funds that we put up.
      We need to exert the same amount of pressure on the American public that FWD.us is doing to counter their claims.

      Since 2007 I have been researching this nightmare and doing everything I can to get back to work.

      I will be 59 in december of this year and the silence of well educated, logically thinking STEM workers is deafening.

      Are we mice or sheep to be led to slaughter in the job market, or are we American Citizens that want to provide a better future than we had for the future children of America, many of them our own?

      United We Stand.
      Divided We Fall.

      Folks, on the banner of Keep America At Work I have the following words.

      “We are willing to fight FWD.us in the streets of America for the future of American Citizens, Will you help us?”

      I want the bastards to know that we are going to fight them.
      But the only way it will get credibility is if we put our time and our money behind it.

      I am willing to donate the first 100 dollars to form a union of American workers from every occupational group in America, not just STEM workers.

      Given a few months, I am even willing to donate the first 1,000 dollars to do the same.

      Are you not willing to donate 20 or even 1 dollars to save your future?

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  3. The H-1B situation is just one of many critical issues that are going the wrong way due to our fake 2-party system. Time to dump the Democrats and Republicans, and vote Green.

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  4. Some techies have already organized to derail Staple! There are proposals to “exclude students with degrees in biological and biomedical fields” from Staple and H-1B. Google “exclude students with degrees in biological and biomedical fields” for more info. One more reason to dump computer science and engineering and get a health care related college degree.

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    • “Health Care related” will soon be a miserable job category if/when Big Brother decides that doctors and nurses are a “collective resource” and they should be considered “de facto government employees”. This is merely a slow, gentle way of implementing China’s 1966 “cultural revolution”.

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  5. Trump held an AMA last night on Reddit. Milo Yiannopoulos, a gay conservative who is popular online, asked him about his stance on H1Bs. Here is his question:

    America has a proud tradition of stealing the most brilliant and talented people from countries around the world for ourselves. Albert Einstein, Wernher von Braun, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Melania Trump… the list goes on and on. In recent years, however, H-1B visa abuse has become rampant.

    A program meant bring truly exceptional talent to America has been twisted by globalist politicians and corporations, allowing low-cost, short term labor to steal jobs from everyday Americans and take everything they learn back to their home countries. Will you curb H-1B abuse and make sure visas are going to people who want to become American, stay American, and make America great?

    Trump’s answer was to basically direct him to his immigration policy on his website:

    I have put forward a detailed plan for H-1B reform to protect American workers which can viewed on the immigration paper on my website. My plan is the exact opposite of Crooked Hillary Clinton.

    I remember in the debate in Miami, Trump stated that he would suspend the H1B program for at least 1 year, probably 2 years until he or his administration figures how to fix it.

    However, from Trump’s website, his policy does not state this. Instead, it states:

    Increase prevailing wage for H-1Bs.

    Requirement to hire American workers first. Too many visas, like the H-1B, have no such requirement. In the year 2015, with 92 million Americans outside the workforce and incomes collapsing, we need companies to hire from the domestic pool of unemployed. Petitions for workers should be mailed to the unemployment office, not USCIS.

    This last sentence echoes what Trump said in North Dakota a couple of months ago about ‘companies hiring from the unemployment line, not the immigration line’.

    Trump’s immigration policy does mention ending the J1 visa program:

    Jobs program for inner city youth. The J-1 visa jobs program for foreign youth will be terminated and replaced with a resume bank for inner city youth provided to all corporate subscribers to the J-1 visa program.

    The mention of a ‘resume bank’ in regards to the J1 visa hopefully can be extended to the H1 visa – if it gets to stay. But my preference would be to suspend the program for 1-2 years. If the economy stays level or gets better, then that is ultimate proof that the H1B is not needed and there is not tech talent shortage.

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    • I have said this again and again, and will likely be forced to continue to do so in the future: The focus is on the precise term “H-1B.” Trump has basically endorsed Staple a Green Card, making H-1B pretty much irrelevant.

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      • And I have said this time and again: Trump has not explicitly said he wants to ‘Staple a Green Card’ to all foreign college grads, nor to just MS or PhD grads. His words – from his tweet last year (foreigners “who graduate our universities at the top of their class”) and from his book ‘Time to Get Tough’ back in 2011 – were focused on ‘top of the class at our top schools’.

        Furthermore, Trump’s MAIN focus is ‘America First’ so if American college grads can fill these open jobs, he is not going to endorse ‘Staple’.

        Trump has said many times in rallies that our national education level ranks low globally – in the bottom end of a list of 30-35 countries – and has said that he’ll work on improving this. I can see him working on increasing the college graduation levels of African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans or at least to provide skills training – a strong American workforce is a strong America. Trump has repeatedly said it’s his policy that employers should hire from the unemployment line, not the immigration line.

        The battle will be on who can show him the best proof/evidence to influence his decision.

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        • Trump’s exact phrasing was:

          When foreigners attend our great colleges & want to stay in the U.S., they should not be thrown out of our country…I want talented people to come into this country—to work hard and to become citizens. Silicon Valley needs engineers, etc.

          The key phrases are there, “want to stay…[and] become citizens.” That can only mean green cards. And when he says “Silicon Valley needs engineers,” that is clearly a generic statement.

          But why don’t you contact Trump campaign headquarters and ask them to clarify Trump’s quote above?

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          • You are absolutely right, but beware Indian students.. You can buy GRE and TOEFL with high score in Indian market. Any degree can buy from Indian market with all government stamps its just couple grands $$$$. Did you heard a story couple months back from our great university, 180 Indian students deported due to lack of eligibility and knowledge.

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  6. Dr. Matloff,

    You are correct to an extent – American IT workers have not organized, at least to any significant level. Certainly not to a critical mass.

    There are organizations here & there as well as individuals. Here is my latest list:

    ORGS

    NumbersUSA
    https://www.numbersusa.com

    Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR)
    – Fair Chance At Jobs
    http://www.fairchanceatjobs.com

    Protect US Workers
    http://www.ProtectUSworkers.org

    U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform

    INDIVIDUALS

    Senator Jeff Sessions (R-Alabama)
    – Alabama
    https://twitter.com/SenatorSessions

    John Miano
    – Center for Immigration Studies
    – cis.org/Miano-Blog

    Sara Blackwell
    – Protect US Workers
    – attorney based in Florida representing the Disney workers
    sara@theblackwellfirm.com
    info@protectusworkers.org

    Ron Hira
    http://www.epi.org/people/ron-hira/

    Pat Thibodeau
    – Computerworld
    https://twitter.com/DCgov

    Michelle Malkin
    https://twitter.com/michellemalkin
    – wrote the book “Sold Out: How High-Tech Billionaires & Bipartisan Beltway Crapweasels Are Screwing America’s Best & Brightest Workers”
    – cowritten with John Miano
    http://www.michellemalkin.com/2015/11/09/sold-out-how-high-tech-billionaires-bipartisan-beltway-crapweasels-are-screwing-americas-best-brightest-workers/

    Peter Cappelli
    – Wharton School of Business

    Dan Stein
    – President, Federation for American Immigration Reform

    James A. Otto
    http://www.lawofficesofjamesaotto.com

    Ann Coulter
    https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter

    David North
    – Center for Immigration Studies

    Senator Bill Nelson
    http://www.billnelson.senate.gov/sites/default/files/Nelson_Sessions_H-1B_Reform_Bill.pdf

    Annika Schauer
    – works at the Department of State processing visa applications
    – processed a couple 10,000 visas or so.
    – a Most Viewed Writer in U.S. Immigration on Quora
    https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-egregious-examples-of-H1B-visa-abuse

    AJ Delgado
    https://twitter.com/AJDelgado13

    Maria Bartiromo
    https://twitter.com/MariaBartiromo

    Paul A. Thompson

    Milo Yiannopoulos
    https://www.reddit.com/user/yiannopoulos_m

    And of course Virgil at KeepAmericaAtWork.com

    Maybe someone can propose to form a coalition of all these orgs and individuals…

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    • Numbers and the other reform organizations are great, but their primary focus is on the illegals. At some point they will need to compromise between the two, if they haven’t already.

      Many, if not most, of the others focus on the Infosyses. My guess that, again many if not most, of them would support Staple a Green Card.

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    • Thank You for the mention.
      I try to get them to understand that everyday, to no avail.

      It really is this simple.

      United We Stand.
      Divided we fall.

      And we are falling

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  7. Google “Trump ad on Clinton outsourcing”. The ad shows Clinton addressing Indians on outsourcing, saying it’s inevitable. The Clinton campaign is trying to block the super-PAC from putting it on the air. This ad puts Clinton in a bad light, given her recent stance on supporting workers, etc. definitely not good, but still way better than crazy Trump ( aka Putin’s right-hand man).

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      • Silly comment for a silly man. But there’s a bigger issue here than the candidates’ positions on H1B. Clinton makes noises like she’s moved in Bernie’s direction and would be against H1B. She probably does care about creating jobs for Americans, but I think she wouldn’t favor anything that impedes free trade and a free flow of labor. She probably drank the Kool-Aid and believes there’s a tech labor shortage, and sees a loss of tech jobs for Americans as collateral damage that can’t be helped, in the interest of free trade opportunities. This always surprises me in that in some respects this is a security issue, like buying electronic components for our military weapons from China. Losing technical expertise is not a smart thing to do.

        But now the alternative to Clinton is Trump. Norm, you seem to see Trump as a viable candidate. The man is obviously not fit to be president, even though he does sound better on H1B than Clinton, sometimes. And you can call linking Trump to Putin silly, but his behavior and comments do raise questions. There seems to be something there that we don’t know about, that doesn’t sound good, not something I want to hear from a presidential candidate. The man simply doesn’t seem to have the knowledge or wisdom or personality to be an effective president. Worse yet, he could be very dangerous.

        Ultimately, the issue is that our leaders in both parties seem to be locked into a status-quo mindset that favors money and power over working and middle-class people, even in the face of the Trump and Bernie phenomena. They don’t seem to see the level of frustration and dissatisfaction in the country. Whatever happens with the election, if this issue isn’t dealt with it will get worse, and at some point it will have to be resolved. Electing Clinton would be delaying the inevitable. The fear is that in picking Trump, the Republicans are going down a path that could lead to disaster…for all of us.

        As a practical matter, all of the dissatisfaction and frustration needs to be focused on getting money out of politics, no restrictions on voting, and no gerrymandering congressional districts, for starters. Beyond that, we need to focus on solutions to harness capitalism to work for all Americans, not just share-holders. I would like to think that this could be done within the existing system. But my concern is that it would require a major crisis to bring about such changes, Maybe electing Trump could bring on that crisis, initiate these changes. But there is also the risk that it could bring calamity we can’t predict.

        But we’ve got to try something, so vbierschwale and Techpro are on the right track. But they’ve got to inform and educate and organize everybody, the 99%, not just techies.

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        • Trump’s comment that “Maybe Russia can find Hillary’s 30,000 missing e-mail messages” was obviously a joke. Yet you and the press insist on treating it as a serious statement.

          Hillary’s comments on H-1B have shown NO inclination whatsoever to fix the problem.

          As to Trump: (a) I already sharply criticized him last August on the H-1B issue. (b) I am very concerned about his impetuous nature. (c) I intend to vote for Bernie as a write-in in November. Having said all that, I continue to believe he is the only candidate who has the potential to bring needed change.

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          • I don’t think Trump meant this as a joke, and I don’t think he meant it as an intentional, serious statement the way you’re suggesting. His mouth seems to be connected to his stream of consciousness and he says whatever comes to mind at the time, without a filter. My concern is that he seems to have this odd affinity for Putin and Russia. This seems to be what he thinks, unfiltered. It’s cause for worry in a presidential candidate.

            So it is a concern that Trump as president could do something disastrous. But it’s also a concern that Clinton as president may not address the issues that have been raised by Trump and Bernie supporters: that the power elites push globalization at the expense of the American people. The H1B issue is a symptom of that problem.

            Trump or Clinton, either way it doesn’t look like we’ll deal with these issues any time soon. Hopefully the Bernie movement will turn into a political force that can include the frustrated, disaffected people that supported Trump and Bernie. And I also voted for Bernie in the Cal primary.

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          • Are you kidding me? By saying ‘I continue to believe he is the only candidate who has the potential to bring needed change’, you are more biased and pardon my language ‘ignorant’ to even begin with. Can you list out few things by which you believe that Trump is the candidate with potential to bring needed change? You are also experienced enough to realize that no single person can be the change and that it needs to be systemic. Trump knows jack about politics and how to get things done (including at the grass-root levels).

            Please bookmark this comment of yours for future reference. I am sure you will chuckle at it.

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          • You really should go to work for the Clinton campaign. Not only are you quoting from her speech, but you are misapplying it to what I said about Trump.

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        • thank you, I wanted to show this to people again because they NEED to understand, it is NOT just us tech workers.

          The steel mill and textile mills bit the bullet between 76 and 90 or so ( I used to travel the state of maine fixing scales of all types and I had the luxury to work in and around those mills and they were humming with activity back then – I hear they are silent now)

          The H-2B is hitting our low wage workers.
          The H-1B is hitting people like us.
          The opt and student visas are hitting the interns.
          The L-1 and B-1 are destroying everybody in between.

          Even today CSC and HP destroyed more jobs by sending them to low wage countries.

          http://keepamericaatwork.com/mike-lawrie-ceo-of-csc-take-this-synergy-realization-and-shove-it/

          This will not stop unless we Unite and Educate.

          To sit on our ass assures each and every one of us living like I did, and trust me, you don’t want to go there because family, friends and even enemies will turn their nose up at you and say “Get a job”.

          I have ONLY included the H-1B in this spreadsheet.
          If all non-immigrant guest worker visas were on there, you would be shocked and maybe then you would realize that your apathy ensures that your children will follow in your foot steps.

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    • There is a very simple way to end what Hillary said couldn’t be fixed in that commercial

      http://testingkaaw.keepamericaatwork.com/?page_id=244460

      It is OK to grow, raise or manufacture your products here in America and sell them to other countries and the same applies to those countries.
      It is OK to open retail or manufacturing branches in other countries to offset the shipping problems as long as you hire the locals to work in those countries.
      It is NOT OK to put the people in your country out of work, send the growing, raising or manufacturing to another country and then import those products back into your country.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. The “Law” is not being enforced. The “Law” states very simply that no discrimination may occur on the basis of national origin. This means that, if applied as written, any U.S. citizen could sue if he/she was replaced by a foreign worker, because their U.S. citizenship was used against them in the employment decision. Yes, this is the opposite of what many consider to be the “meaning” or “purpose” of the “Law”, but it’s time that people applied “Equality” equally!!

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  9. Norm, I believe the best option is for American techies to join forces with organizations like Immigration Voice. Even the STEM immigrants do not want more H1B’s into this flawed system or a reckless policy like STAPLE.

    Senator Sessions and others are proposing good H1B policies but with no considerations for the thousands of STEM immigrants who are already here and currently stuck in the backlog. Employers and Immigration lawyers exploit this situation very well to paint Sessions and others as Racist/anti-immigrant. Look at all the pro-immigration articles, they write depressing stories about backlogged immigrants to advocate for more H1B’s and GC’s. The backlogged STEM immigrants aren’t advocating for this. All they want is a fair shot to wait in the line. In my opinion it is HR213: Elimination of per country limits

    In one of your earlier comments you talk about compromise between illegals and legals. More than that I believe there needs to be a compromise within the employment based Legal immigration. If the numbers in this article are close to true (http://www.cato.org/blog/no-one-knows-how-long-legal-immigrants-will-have-wait) then there are around 2 million STEM workers stuck in the GC backlog today. Most of them are not in the best and brightest category that you might like but unfortunately they are here because of years flawed policies that needs to be fixed. If those who wish to limit STEM immigration want to advocate a restrictive H1B & GC policy and also kick out most of these backlogged group or keep them as it is than it is likely that the American tech lobbying will remain limited and the pro-immigration group will keep leveraging our hardships to make their case more strong and humanitarian.

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    • I sympathize with those stuck in the queue but also sympathize with the Americans they are displacing. I have to give priority to the latter; the former knew they took a gamble by coming here. If some get tired of waiting and leave, I don’t think that is so terrible.

      Liked by 3 people

      • >> If some get tired of waiting and leave, I don’t think that is so terrible.

        1) I’d agree with you *if* they are leaving.. But they aren’t (evidence/studies are only anecdotal at the best). All those in backlogs are ‘legally’ here and will continue to do so. This theory of ‘leaving’ is totally flawed. As for ‘stats’, if people are leaving in numbers as they are ‘tired of waiting’, we would not be seeing the numbers we are seeing in backlogs as they are today.

        2) In absence of complete ban on immigration (thanks to the cartels-that-be and our congress), as another reader pointed out, GC backlog issue needs to be fixed, besides H-1 (and the ‘no-cap’ O-1 and ‘no-min-wage-limits’ L-1 and others). Fixing one wont fix the other.

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        • No, I don’t think many will leave.

          I heard a rumor that IV has instructed its members who visit people on the Hill (mass visit coming soon) to focus on the harm the per-country caps is bringing on Americans. This is such a distortion as to defy comment.

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          • >> This is such a distortion as to defy comment

            Agreed, but in the absence of any changes/ban on H-1, L-1 and everthing between , there is a *direct* relation between country cap and the GC backlogs [for india born indentured folks] and that does address the american job loss. While it may not be a cure-all, it’s atleast a start (given the current optics of politics today) ….

            One data point (I’d quote like everyone else – on H-1) is that for the last couple of years, a “lion’s” share of 85k annual H-1 visas are going to one nationality alone – no prizes for guessing – india – Translated, longer and deeper GC queues.

            And I suppose that’s the next best thing to advocate; I would not be surprised if they work with congressional offices in ‘fixing’ the current H-1B mess – hiking minimum salary levels etc.

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          • The per country limits is one is bringing harm on Americans. You yourselve have admitted that besides cheap wages due to young age, indentured servitude is the other reason why backlogged H1B’s are attractive to employers.

            Agreed that the eliminating the per country limits does not fix the specific “AGE” issue but it will make Indian and Chinese H1B’s less attractive toemployers than it is today.

            Besides that can you tell according to you what specific harm does eliminating per country limits bring to Americans that you are against it?

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          • I stated long ago that I am neutral on the country-caps issue. And I am not entirely convinced that the framers of the original legislation were wrong in requiring that the immigrant pool be diverse.

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        • >> framers of the original legislation were wrong in requiring that the immigrant pool be diverse

          Which “original” legislation are you referring to ? if it’s the one from 1990 and the “framers” being Fragomen, Morrison et al.,? If it is, then your own research has proven these to be clowns and not “framers”.
          [wonder how these “framers” left out the same diversity when it comes to H-1,L-1 and others and did manage to make few of these non-immigrant visas to be “dual” intent, and also managed to have a country cap on naturalization in the name of diversity]. Although, in his defense, Morrison now seems to claim(through his friend Donnelly) that when he championed the legislation, employment GC quota was meant to count principals only (and not dependents). — This could be an alternative to removing country cap. Let’s see how many will ‘push’ for it.

          Finally, there is a real ‘diversity’ greencard (50k/year) exactly for the reasons you speak of.

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          • I’d have to look it up, but I believe the per-country caps go back much further than 1990l

            I really have trouble believing anything Morrison or Donnelly say.

            The Diversity Visa was the creation of Sen. Kennedy, who had many undocumented Irish in his state.

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          • >> So effectively they are anyways staying in the US for 10-15 years in bulk and influencing the culture in most ways

            Small correction – those [indians/chinese/philipinos] in employment based green-card backlogs are here for a ‘lifetime’, not 10-15 years — It would be very obvious, then, that those folks that still talk about quotas in employment based greencards [in the absence of complete ban on H-1/greencard etc] want only one thing — a subset of the employment pool to continue to lose jobs (americans/perm. residents) and the foreign workers to be ‘indentured’….

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          • @matloff

            When it comes to “diversity”, you do know professor Matloff that a chinese person born in canada or an indian person born in Australia would not be considered chinese or indian by your immigration policy.

            Doesn’t it defeat that whole diversity thing? I was born in India. My cousin was born in Canada. Just 4 years apart. How does she bring less or more indian diversity to the US than I do?

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          • No policy is perfect, without exceptions. But you do know, Maurice, that a Chinese or Indian person born in Australia is Australian, with Australian culture and so on.

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          • I believe the per country caps were introduced in 1965. I understand their original intent of diversity and do understand that they might not have realized how the F1 and H1B policies in the future would distort it. I still believe there should a per country cap on family based migration. Post 1990, with H1B and with US state Universities acting like for profit organizations (seeking foreign students) kills the entire purpose of diversity.

            H1B’s from India/China who have applied for green card and have I140 approved can apply for as many H1B extensions until they receive their GC. So effectively they are anyways staying in the US for 10-15 years in bulk and influencing the culture in most ways.

            Eliminating per country limits for EB GC will also have a effect on employers who usually have a bias in hiring Indians/Chinese. I am sure that the employer/lawyer lobby groups have always made sure that the GC per country limits are not eliminated unless the H1B and GC numbers are doubled or tripled. For those who want to limit immigration, putting a per country cap on F1 and H1B could be a very good options. But Im sure Universities and employers wont let that happen

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          • I believe employers are hiring Chinese and Indians in pretty much the same proportion as those groups are represented in U.S. graduate schools. And I don’t think most employers want to hire an H-1B for 10-15 years.

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    • >> American techies to join forces with organizations like Immigration Voice

      I have seen few of their videos (congressional testimonial/attend DHS ombudsman meets and so on) and glanced at their social media, their ‘focus’ seems to be addressing the “americans displaced” issue by way of giving mobility (removal of country cap being one of them) to the indentured workers and making such folks less ‘attractive’ to the employer-immig lawyer cartel.

      As you mention, until likes of Sessions do not see this as a ‘compromise’, they are indirectly abetting to the job losses that we are seeing and will that will continue to happen with the status quo.

      [While I am very glad that these congressional folks got our backs by *not* letting any “H-1” cap-hikes to happen, but they are -not- stopping the current bleeding either] — For every Sessions, there is a Schumer and vice-versa – The sooner this is realized, a ‘fix’ (or a fake-reform) may be in place.

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  10. @matloff,

    >>> I don’t think most employers want to hire an H-1B for 10-15 years

    yep – employer want to hire H-1s for a lifetime, not just 10-15 years.

    I was looking at some of the stuff that this grassroots advocacy group was doing and stumbled across a comment submitted to on a proposed rule by DHS/USCIS and it outlays the intent/text and interpretation of the law by govt agencies! http://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=USCIS-2015-0008-18526&attachmentNumber=1&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf

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      • I am specifically talking about Intels/IBMS here. The prevailing wage determination techniques for H1B certification are not strict and can be obtained through any third party, not necessarily DOL approved institutions. Employers can pretty much play around with level numbers and Occupation titles to get a Prevailing wage number close to what they have offered to the candidate.

        However when its comes to GC filing the Prevailing Wage determination has to be done through OES (or other DOL Approved inst.). Typically an OES determined prevailing wage for EB2 filings (Masters Graduate from University) comes close to six figures, even in non-silicon valley areas . (Employers can still manipulate the Occupation title to bring the wage down but typically DOL puts those applications on Audit if they believe the occupation title is not worthy of an EB2).

        So typically all employers who have filed EB2 with appropriate occupation titles are obliged to pay the prevailing wage to the LPR candidate. However the loophole in the system is that this legal obligation only comes into effect once the candidate receives his/her GC. That is where Indians and Chinese are the most beneficial to them. For indians, an employer can decide to pay a certain wage to them in 2025 which was actually determined in 2012. Until then they have good reasons to hold them off of any promotions or significant raise. Bigger firms like Microsoft, Amazon dont fall into this because they usually have a decent starting package pretty close to the prevailing wage. But this practice is very common for non-coding positions that typically start with 60K in mid/small size firms in non-silicon valley areas.

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          • >> Please specify the topic

            Unless, I am getting mixed up with the replies, I thought you disagreed either with employers wanting to keep indians indentured for a lifetime or more or with the other part of my comment referring to a comment submitted by the advocacy group on how the law is written vs how it is interpreted!

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  11. >>> Not sure what your point is here. Can you rephrase things?

    I was referring to proponents of ‘diversity’ in employment based greencard quotas(country caps); but the same folks fail to realize (or turn a blind eye to) that the same is not applied to non-greencard visas (H-1/L-1/etc).

    Secondly, the country cap are being using for exactly the opposite reason – To get an indentured workforce from the ‘same’ country – Where’s the so-called diversity here.

    Finally, as the other posted points out, these ‘indentured’ folks are here for a long run and the logic of ‘diversity’ is already getting diluted, no? (they keep getting their H-1s extended 3 years at a time as there is a country cap for them) and here’s the kicker – Worst case, these indentured folks need to wait for their oldest “american born” kid to get to 21 to get their citizenship automatically — DAPA [“Delayed” Action for Parents of Americans] for legals, so to speak.

    The ‘best-of-the-best’ proposals from Sen. Sessions/Grassley does not talk about country caps for H-1/L-1 etc. So that would mean the best our politicians can do for americans is to fix the wage levels in H-1 and others but if an intel or an infosys can afford those wages (by eventually making the market accept a higher wage level), those employers can still stuff the greencard queue with indians… I hope not!

    >>> I disagree with your claim that employers want those workers for a lifetime

    Most of the stats/numbers/HR interviews seem to be from the well known “intels/infosyses” – That’s just the tip of the iceberg in my mind. There’s a “pretty large” employers/attorney cartel underwater that *want* their employees to be indentured for a life time! Some of the recent videos I posted on this blog few days ago is a good indicator of this.

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  12. Everytime you mention India, you should remember that
    1. America was founded because someone set out to find India
    2. Indians were never great travellers because they never needed, until England invaded India.

    I am not India or American, but I respect history and what it has led us to.

    Besides that, I think the jobless/fewer jobs situation is going to worsen H1B or not. Lets look at a few points
    1. Online retailers are dominating the market, leading to closure of retail outlets. Look at the numbers hired by retail outlets vs online giants(only in terms of employees serving the retail segment ).
    2. Outsourcing: every product that I have in my house is mostly China made.The congress needs to insert clause companies importing good as well as manufacturing goods for US should pay the basic pay as US worker gets. Now, its a level playing field.
    3. Uber, Airbnb, Lfyt: These companies are adding money to already earning members, leaving people with no income not even an opportunity to earn.
    These are just small aspects that US Congress needs to examine more closely.

    Also think about the spillover effect, where is a high qualified person decides to take up a lower paying job and this goes like a waterfall. All because the government is ignorant about the ground reality and so are the people trying to highlight inconsequential aspects.

    You don’t decide a food just by its packaging, similarly, what may look obvious may not be true.

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  13. Please Just google search how many indian students deported from usa? I can’t find that news link and in that incident Indian Prime minister contacted US, but Those are came with fake certificates and university denied to accept it, from one school more than 100 students and rest other school. If you have money, you can make every documents in india.
    http://redbus2us.com/indian-students-deported-from-usa-latest-news-updates/
    But this is old link

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