I’ve stated many times that the H-1B work visa should be reserved for “the Best and the Brightest.” Thus I read with keen interest the New York Times article, “Is Anyone Good Enough for an H1-B Visa?,” by a foreign student from China. The final paragraph is typical of the sense of entitlement I see so often among foreign students these days:
As I make plans to go back to China, I find myself wondering: If I am not qualified to stay in the United States, then who is?
Ms. Yu may well be among the Best and the Brightest, what with her degrees from Oxford and Stanford. But I must admit to some skepticism. Even if you speak no Chinese, you’ve probably heard the word guanxi, literally meaning relationship but of course actually meaning connections that one can exploit. I know that guanxi sometimes plays a big role in building up impressive re’sume’s. And as you will see, on one key aspect of her claim, I am more than just skeptical.
Yu mentions that she has a letter of recommendation from a Nobel laureate. Nice, but how did that arise? Many years ago I chaired my department’s graduate admissions committee. One day I received a phone call from a Nobel laureate in support of an applicant whose record was quite mediocre. The caller did have a connection to UC Davis, so he needed to be taken seriously, and frankly, I was rather naive at the time. We did admit the applicant, and she did mediocre work. It turned out later that the caller was an old friend of the applicant’s father, who was in a prominent position in China. Lesson learned for me.
The Nobel claim may allude to the fact that a co-founder of Yu’s company is the recipient of a different prize, a nice one, but far from the Nobel. If so, Yu’s claim is unconscionable.
Ms. Yu’s LinkedIn page has no endorsements from Nobelists. Quite the contrary, the only recommendation she has is from a former mentor who says simply, “Smart determined and hard working,” hardly the phrasing one would use for the Best and the Brightest.
Yu claims to be an expert in artificial intelligence and big data. Here I will go further than mere skepticism, and say that this would be almost impossible given her complete lack of technical background; her background has been entirely in law and business. I am unable to find any research publications in the field by her. None of her various online bios mentions AI or big data, She may well have taken a class or two during her MBA, but even then, it would not justify her claim to be an expert in the field. This is key, because Yu is complaining that she was turned down for a visa that she feels she deserves because of her expertise in this field.
Yu also claims to be returning to China. and given the theme of her piece, the message is that the U.S. has just lost a top talent. But I will be very surprised if she doesn’t return to the U.S. permanently within the next few months. I’ve been fooled by such statements before as well.
I really do believe in facilitating the immigration of the Best and the Brightest. I have publicly supported liberalizing the two main related aspects of immigration law, the O-1 work visa and the National Interest Waiver for green cards. I’ve acted on that conviction on various occasions, including actively promoting the hiring of faculty colleagues whom I felt were outstanding talents. In two cases, one Chinese and the other Indian, originally my department wanted to hire someone else but I convinced my colleagues to hire these two outstanding applicants. I’ve helped top foreign students get jobs in Silicon Valley, and a couple of years ago, I wrote a very strong letter supporting a certain foreign national for the O-1. He got it, and is now working down the road from Ms. Yu.
If Yu had claimed that she is a brilliant expert in international law, and used her Oxford and Stanford credentials to support the claim, I might still have a bit of doubt, but I would have accepted it. But I must say I am troubled by her case.
117 thoughts on “Yes, Who Indeed Is Qualified for an H-1B Visa?”
There are two issues that perhaps Yu is mixing up. Is she qualified for the job. Perhaps she is. The other is, does this job need the kind of specialty that cannot be had in this country an needs people from other countries like China. Perhaps not. There are a lot of people here with advanced degrees and/or substantial experience in AI that probably could do the job. She should be asking about the job, itself, qualifying to be filled by her, rather than she being qualified for the job.
What about my dreams Frida Yu?
> ” As I make plans to go back to China,
> I find myself wondering:
> If I am not qualified to stay in the United States,
> then who is? ”
United States citizens are ” qualified to stay in the United States “.
There are many equally ” qualified ” and many even MORE ” qualified ” US Citizens
who wish ” to stay in the United States ” and are looking for work.
When US Citizens become unemployed, many go back to school.
Some teach themeselves and many do both.
But Yu pretends not to see them, simply hasn’t bothered to look or is knowlingly looking the other way.
It’s quite ironic how people who claim they are smarter than everyone simultaneously behave in ways that pretend to be so ignorant of the nature of things in the United States.
Yu, you can find these qualified US Citizens in schools across the United States.
Have you looked there ?
Yu, you can find these qualified US Citizens at the unemployment office and other government benefits offices across the United States.
Have you look there ?
Yu, you can find these qualified US Citizens in their homes, day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, studying and upgrading their skills and without work.
Have you look there ?
Yu, you can find these qualified US Citizens at psychiatric offices across the United States trying to understand and rationalize all the rejection they have experienced.
Have you looked there ?
Yu, you can find these qualfied US Citizens at EEOC offices across the United States filing discrimination claims.
Have you looked there ?
Yu, you can find these qualified US Citizens working on job searches looking for companies who advertise jobs where US Citizens can see them ( instead of hiding behind 3’rd party recruiters to obfiscate the nature of things ).
Have you looked there ?
Yu, you can find these qualified US Citizens in the shadows of the declining US Labor Participation Rate.
Have you looked there ?
Yu, you can find these qualfied US Citizens talking to their Congressman, state Senators and actively participating in political campaigns.
Have you looked there ?
Yu, you can find these qualified US Citizens joining Professional organizations and attending their meetings and event.
Have you looked there ?
Yu, open your eyes and take a look at the nature of things in the United States.
Yu, your Virtue Signalling is a total joke.
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is this a joke? how many “qualified US citizens in EEOC office” are Oxford law AND Stanford MBA grads? What are you smoking?
This person claimed to be an AI expert. She has NO credentials in AI. See also her false claim to have support from a Nobel laureate.
PERM is the first phase of an EB-3 or non-NIW EB-2 Green Card procedure. A such it has nothing to do with H-1B visas. (This in response to the first video shown above.)
PERM is used for any work-related green card, incl. EB-3. It is separate, yes, but since many recipients are H-1Bs, it is related.
I worked for a small company founded and run exclusively ny immigrant Chinese. The development department was exclusively Chinese, all here working under the H1B program. My comments are surrounding the cultural backgrounds or strategy these individuals may be be using.
Some of the founding members believed they were “the best”, often making ridiculous claims. Whether they truly believed this, or if it was a kind of insecurity or mental mind game, I don’t know.
Then there was the desire to get ahead at any cost, intertwined with the “saving face” cultural attribute. Maybe Ms Yu falls into this category.
There is apparently an ethos that one can do virtually anything to get ahead. I’m told that in China, 95% of software is pirated, patents or IP aren’t respected, etc.
I think we do ourselves a disservice when we assume that all new immigrants share our Western norms and values. This can be especially damaging in hi tech. I believe there were some serious criminal acts by Chinese nationals here under Clinton Gore, and currently there are serious questions regarding Pakistani IT staff that worked for Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the DNC.
Concerning the self-promotion: I agree that this is common among foreign students from China these days. But it is quite counter to traditional Chinese culture.
On the presumption that immigrants have Western values: Anyone who values diversity in a society, as I do, must also accept the fact that the diversity will also have negative consequences. I believe that people in DC are beginning to understand that.
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What timing for your post! I’m surprised Yu doesn’t have a doctored resume or had some assistance puffing up her LinkedIn webpage.
I’ve mentioned this story before but here’s an update. Just heard Wednesday from my former co-worker. He just got laid off by my former employer, a very large telecommunications firm – trust me – you’ve seen the ads.
After he filled me in on his future plans, he let me know the latest on our “all-star” H1B DBA. For the past 2 1/2 years, she has been tasked with performing an update of the Oracle database software. This is on a production database for a very large federal government client. In her latest and 7th attempt, she failed again. My buddy had to report the failure to the client rep. Because she’s so inept, he couldn’t relate any detailed info.
This was the lady who’s resume was inspected by a former DBA co-worker. This DBA, a brilliant H1B, said, “If her resume is true, we’d hire her on the spot.”
The resume stated she had 11 years of experience in Oracle and SQL Server. It listed every facet of data base administration that I have ever dealt or heard of, including some I hadn’t.
Yet, on the job, she has trouble logging on to servers and doing simple DBA tasks.
After 4 years she’s still employed by this firm. A routine maintenance, updating to a new version of database software, which had been previously performed, dozens of times by other DBAs, citizen and H1B, is still beyond her grasp.
And the firm keeps her employed, with a $100+K salary, benefits and 20% yearly bonus. This, even though the currently installed version of database software, is years out of date, not supported by Oracle and is in violation of corporate and probably federal security rules. And this is known by layers of management.
Yet me friend with 25+ years of IT experience is laid off.
Where’s the justice?
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This of course is common, both for H-1Bs and Americans.
Thanks for sending along Norm.
Progressives for Immigration Reform
1701 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Suite 300 Washington, DC 20006
(O) 202.543.5325 (C) 626.825.1331 (F) 202.595.0258 Klynn@pfirdc.org
From: Upon Closer inspection <email@example.com> Reply-To: Upon Closer inspection <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Friday, November 24, 2017 at 12:45 AM To: Microsoft Office User <email@example.com> Subject: [New post] Yes, Who Indeed Is Qualified for an H-1B Visa?
matloff posted: “I’ve stated many times that the H-1B work visa should be reserved for “the Best and the Brightest.” Thus I read with keen interest the New York Times article, “Is Anyone Good Enough for an H1-B Visa?,” by a foreign student from China. The final paragraph”
I was born and raised in China and came here as an immigrant. Now, I am working for a bank. Recently, we fired an employee graduated from Beijing University. And a Tsinghua university graduate is forced out. There are the top two best university in China. Our financial models were built by graduates from the top Chinese universities. Recently, I reviewed the models, it did not take me to find numerous fundamental problems. Frida Yu went to top-ranked universities, but it doesn’t not mean anything to me.
unfamiliar with this site. fast and fresh. this article seems to reference a social border paTroll. i think success and philanthropy is a world wide requirement. article and comments ignored our best and brightest leaving our country(U.S,A.)
Not sure what you have in mind. Open borders?
My posting emphasized that we should facilitate the immigration of the Best and the Brightest. But this person is clearly not Best and Brightest in her claimed category, AI. On top of that, she apparently lied about the Nobelist; if so, is that the kind of person we want?
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The person referred to in Norm’s piece is not one of the “best and brightest”. What she is, quite clearly, is a boasting liar with no accomplishments. She said that she wanted to found a startup to analyse data in a new way. What absolute bullshit. Probably she was going to re-invent the spreadsheet or something else equally derivative.
One of the main problems with Americans is that they are credulous and stupid about foreign cheats. Most foreigners are not better than Americans. They just bullshit with heavy accents.
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It seems like Yu is applying for the wrong visa. I am from the UK and got a green card in the E11 Category. This visa is for exceptional candidates and has a rigorous process of acceptance. The H1B is another matter.
I also worked on Wall St. with numerous Indian and Chinese H1B recipients. The bank recruited them not because they were exceptional and because they were cheap and worked all hours under threat of being deported after their contracts expired. I also graduated from Cambridge and remember we had a foreign language school in Cambridge, I think there is one in Oxford too. It is quite common for Indian and Chinese students to attend and then claim they graduated from Oxford or Cambridge.
Yes, the Oxbridge administrators must deliberately exploit their name in that manner. In the case of Ms. Yu, I would be pretty sure that she really was at Oxford Law in all its glory. But how did she get in? Did she have a letter of recommendation from a “Nobelist”?
When you get a law degree in another country, it gives you NOTHING in the US. Lawyers are too smart to allow foreigners to come in here and actually act as lawyers. You have to pass the bar in the US to be a lawyer, and I believe that also means you must go to a US law school. So her law claim is bullshit.
The author is a little out of touch with the reality of the tech industry by citing an example of how he convinced what I can only presume were native born American colleagues to hire two foreign born students. I have worked in the tech industry since ’99. Almost all silicon valley semiconductor companies that do not engage in government contracts are overwhelmingly Chinese and Indian (they make up about 90% of the workforce – U.S. citizens are only a percentage of the remaining 10%). That means you will rarely ever be interviewed by a native born U.S. citizen. In the over 60 interviews in my career, I have never had one interview (with foreign interviewers) in which I didn’t feel discriminated against. It’s quite frankly, blatantly obvious. It’s become so common that when I do interview with a U.S. citizen and they actually want to know about my qualifications and ability to do the job that I instantly become suspicious of them. Lastly, the culture ARE different. With respect native born nationality, China and India are overwhelmingly monolithic. Before you trumpet diversity you should see how people of different religious sects and how women are treated in India. That translates to how a manager treats employees. If you love diversity so much, I suggest that you go interview for jobs where the interviewers are exclusively Indian or Chinese and see how far you get. When you are at THEIR mercy and require THEM to be ethical in the hiring process, you will find that their culture has no such belief. They will present nonsensical reasons to dismiss you. I AM exceptionally good at what I do and I am routinely told by inferior engineers from China and India that I’m not qualified. At this point I have to throw away two Engineering degrees and more than 10 years of experience (20 years in total) so that an entry level untrained engineer from India can get an H1B visa to work at, pick your favorite company (Intel, Qualcomm, Cisco, Broadcom, the list is endless). If you don’t believe this is happening, you can easily find websites of more than 50 companies that produce absolutely nothing, yet ‘permanently employ’ Indian engineers on H1B visas that working onsite as contractors at the companies I mentioned above (this is a loophole in the H1B law as contractors should not be on an H1B). By the way, I have also seen the rates of these contracts decrease by as much as 50% in the last 10 years. Strange that the contract rates have gone down.
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I have mentioned most or all of these things over the years. Among other things, it shows that the claim that Silicon Valley is a meritocracy is a sham, though I would note that many sincerely believe. One of the major reasons you are considered inferior by some who are actually inferior to you is that they have different criteria. For instance, they may consider experience with the latest minor version of Python to be supremely important, while not considering designing, coding and debugging ability at all.
And yet, the H1B they hire has no such qualifications? You’re reaching, Norm.
I have no idea what you are referring to.
“they may consider experience with the latest minor version of Python to be supremely important”
And yet, that same “supremely important” qualification is not expected of the “we’ll have someone here train the inbound H1B”.
It is a stretch to say any significant hiring of H1Bs are on the basis of right down to the precision of latest minor version skill matching experience.
The government gives closer scrutiny to small companies, especially if the founder/CEO is seeking the H-1B visa. About 90% of startups fail. The government may like to review tax forms, financial statements, and contracts with other companies. The government prefers that there be a board of directors that can fire the CEO. A startup with a handful of employees and no income to pay the employees the prevailing wage will likely be denied a visa. Many startup employees receive no paycheck. They would likely receive a percentage ownership of the company.
The H-1B applicant may be among the Best and the Brightest but he/she may fail in getting their startup going (lack of need for their product/service, lack of investors/capital, competition, etc.)
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Thanks for the details!
I have a number of friends and colleagues who work in Silicon Valley. I myself live and work in India, as a software developer.
I have gone through some of the work on your blog, and this is the first time I am hearing about the sham meritocracy, especially at top companies like Google, Facebook etc, but I will take your word for it. However, I believe trying to force companies to hire Americans will not work for the same reason you cannot force companies to move manufacturing back to the USA.
In today’s globalized world, labor rates are set on the world market. What that means is that if companies are forced to hire Americans at a higher cost in SV, they will just move the entire operation offshore. I have seen already happening with companies like mine(I can see other smaller companies following suit in the last 2 years), which cannot cope with the salaries being offered by companies like Google, Facebook etc in the valley. What that will mean is that you have a skeletal staff of “non-moveable” jobs like sales, marketing, legal, leadership etc in SV, and the eng team makes frequent trips both ways to coordinate work. With the difference in currencies, believe me, such a model, even with the frequent trips(10-15 trips in total per quarter for an eng team size of 70), works out much cheaper for the company than hiring in SV. In fact, with a company like mine, we are downsizing H1B workers in the US and requesting some of them to move back to India. In such a case, there is very little, in my opinion, the Government can do to stop them. It harder to impose something like a BAT on services. There is also the problems with imposing such a tax, as it will most likely result in a similar protectionist policy from the other side(the reason why Trump has not imposed tariffs on Chinese steel, labeling them a currency manipulator etc).
This, I believe, gives companies a huge amount of leverage to arm twist the government. The argument essentially is “Allow us to hire who we want to in the US, and those workers will spend and invest their money here, or we will move the whole operation offshore and all the investment, consumption and tax revenues along with it.” So either way the companies get what they want, but in the latter case, the American economy stands to lose.
I understand the frustration such policies, as I would be equally frustrated if I was replaced by a foreign worker some years from now. But in the end of the day, I also need to work and earn a living and look after my self and my family, so if that means someone else gets screwed over, there is little I can do. What are your thoughts on this? And how should countries respond the these challenges in todays globalized world.
The quality of the foreign students who become H-1Bs (these are said by the industry to be the best group) is on average BELOW that of the Americans. (See research papers by me and others.) So, the H-1B program is displacing (directly or indirectly) better-quality Americans by lesser-quality foreigners. This is a net loss to the U.S. economy.
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I understand your argument. What I was curious to know was, in your opinion, how should the US Government regulate these industries to make sure qualified Americans are hired before considering foreign workers while ensuring that the stricter regulations do not force companies to move offshore while hiring the same foreign workers.
The point I am trying to make was that the US government is facing 2 choices, both of which is a net loss to the US economy and is choosing the one that is the least harmful overall. Unless there is a third choice, which I don’t think exists.
The industry lobbyists’ favorite argument is “Give us H-1Bs or we’ll move offshore!” Well, why aren’t they moving offshore already, in more numbers than currently? After all, a foreign worker is even cheaper offshore than he is here. The answer is that most software development can’t be moved offshore effectively. By your thinking, it all should have moved offshore already, which of course is just false.
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Since when is hiring an American worker a loss to the US economy? Gueust workers often transfer their earnings to their home country depriving US businesses of the benefits.
If the only 2 choices are to either allow foreign workers into the US or watch as jobs move offshore to the same foreign workers, it is definitely a greater loss to the US economy to not allow foreign workers.
Yes, it is true that these workers may send a substantial part of their income to their home country, however, they will dispense some of their income in the US by:
1. Spending on rent, car, vacations, shopping etc
2. Investing in a home mortgage or maybe stocks and other financial assets.
3. Taxes – federal , states, local, sales taxes which are a direct source of revenue to the US government.
ALL of this will not happen if the job moves overseas. The net effect, however small, is a loss to the US economy. There is no denying that.
And as I pointed out earlier, it is not possible to impose protectionist measures on intangibles. You cannot impose tariffs on Indian code as you can on Chinese steel.
The big IF here, of course, is whether or not companies can move a bulk of their tech jobs abroad as Mr.Matloff says they threaten to do time and again if the H1B visa program is curtailed or terminated.
I already explained that most software development cannot be moved abroad. Unfortunately, you ignored that.
The Indian offshore model relies on having some workers ONshore, i.e. in the U.S. That can and likely will be stopped or greatly curtailed.
Now here is the part you haven’t thought of: Let’s say there would be a loss to the economy, which you concede would be slight. I can tell you that given a choice of (a) avoiding that slight loss to GDP and (b) keeping jobs for Americans, the American populace would overwhelmingly choose (b), hands down.
It should also be noted that in the semiconductor industry, permanent H1B engineers are paid similar to US citizens. It’s the H1B contractors from India that are driving down contract rates (drastically). Speaking only for the semiconductor industry…I would be satisfied if a company could show proof that I’m not as qualified as the Indian engineer. Have the company publicly cite why I didn’t get the job and someone else. I realize that this would be a dream come true for lawyers, but ‘The Company’ would then have to be sure that they have a sufficient interview process in place to justify hiring an H1B. Proof should not consist of 5 guys from Bangalore casually saying that the applicant from Bangalore is the best. I mentioned in a different reply that if a company wants to hire an H1B visa they should post that job on a job site where US applicants could apply. The company would have to acknowledge why the US applicant is not sufficient. I know of very few engineers from the US that cannot take constructive criticism, so it would be good for the lesser qualified US engineers to know where they are lacking. In addition, it’s been my experience that US engineers are not the typeto complain, let alone sue a company. The last thing needed is for the Federal government to get more involved other than to tell the companies that they have to be more ‘open’ as to the hiring process for H1Bs. The threat of lawsuits will make the companies more diligent in the hiring process. In the semiconductor industry the hiring decisions are made by the manager and his/her team and that’s where the bias takes place. I’ve watched it from my own teammates many times. The concept of “conflict of interest” doesn’t even exist. If your friend is interviewing, you shouldn’t be interviewing them. Let someone unbiased do it.
my apologies, I meant to say that H1Bs and US citizens have similar salaries within the SAME company. That means Broadcom doesn’t pay H1Bs significantly less. However, there are many companies that have lower salaries overall due to H1Bs (i.e. a higher supply that is willing to accept lower wages). I have worked for a company that targets H1Bs from India and the engineering salaries were 50% of the market rate.
Broadcom saves labor costs through H-1B right off the bat, because they hire younger H-1Bs instead of older Americans. Beyond, salaries are ALWAYS negotiated, and foreign workers for obvious reasons don’t have as much bargaining power as Americans, thus get paid below what they would get if they had free access to the labor market.
>> I meant to say that H1Bs and US citizens have similar salaries within the SAME company. That means Broadcom doesn’t pay H1Bs significantly less
Except that (Indian) H1B will be indentured to life with Broadcom (or any employer). If I was a (name your pick) big tech firm (aka the Intels), I’d prefer to pay some one on H1B more than ‘market’ rates (if need be) as I know that they can be stuck with me for the remainder of their lives. The IP remains within my company itself – I will promise them the greencard and chain them with golden handcuffs.
The point is ban everything (it aint happening anytime in our life time) or make everyone a free market agent. Dont tether folks to employers. Even if you do that, the age issue will NOT go away — At that point, we’d be having a different discussion – Why my fresh-out-of-college (young) American kid is being preferred over me in the employment marketplace.
My alma maters anecdotal evidence…100% of Indian EE’s found jobs, less than 50% of US EE’s found work. That came from the director of the universities placement office. Interestingly, he had those statistics “in his pocket” when I asked for them. It was as if he couldn’t wait to provide them to a curious student. I don’t have GPA evidence, but there were a small number of US grad students and I know of none that were in the bottom 50% of GPA.
There are some Americans who are willing and able to work for a lower wage in SV and elsewhere, but they are not given the opportunity. For example, in the latest incident involving layoffs of UCSF employees and replacement of them with H-1Bs, the given reason for the layoffs was cost, not quality of work. As far as I know (given what has been posted publicly on this subject), they were not given the opportunity to renegotiate their labor contracts.
Perhaps if in these situations Americans were allowed to competitively bid for the work, there would not be a need to replace them.
What you wrote about needing to work to earn a living, support your family, etc. is true of *everyone* who is not independently wealthy or supported by someone else, *regardless* of where they were born. IMO, it is appropriate for Americans to use all (legal) means necessary to secure income for themselves, whether it be through lobbying the US Congress for stricter visa laws, bidding competitively for work, etc.
>> it is appropriate for Americans to use all (legal) means necessary to secure income for themselves, whether it be through lobbying the US Congress for stricter visa laws, bidding competitively for work, etc
Sadly, the advocacy groups that supposedly have our backs fail to understand that Intels are as bad as Infosyses. Started to wonder what their hidden agenda is. And anything done administratively will and can be reversed by future administrations.
Stricter visa laws, you say? In the midst of all the melee and hype-n-hoopla in the past year around banning/’reforming’ H1 visa, Issa’s HR 170 sneaked through the committee recently. Per him, in that markup discussion, his another bill – SKILLS act would be introduced shortly. Imagine what that would do to annual H1 numbers. It would be devastating if H1 was hiked three to four times as a ‘reform’ done via HR 170. Continuous revolving population of H1s seems to be obvious outcome.
(Working) Americans are not voicing/lobbying Congress enough,in my opinion – Only the corporations/cartel are and will continue to. Regardless, Congress sold itself out and will continue to. Case in point – EB5 was supposed to have shut down and yet it gets an extension through CR/other Congressional maneuvers every single time.
The fact that the public is ignored by congress doesn’t mean they are not voicing to congress.
>> The fact that the public is ignored by congress doesn’t mean they are not voicing to congress.
..and the congress that is voted and elected by the public chooses to push the cartel’s agenda *always*.
Every country sets their own immigration policy so you cannot compare labor to a real global market like oil. How many Chinese businesses of any kind are relocating to lower cost places like India or Africa? There is no arm twisting needed to get the government to grant visas because they simply don’t care. How many politicians have a clue about the tech industry? H1B program compliance is a joke. How many times in the history of the program has Intel, BCOM, QCOM, Google, or Apple ever had to prove that they hired the best candidate? No, they simply fill out the paper work and pay the fee. The only ‘proof’ they need is a copy of the applicants resumes. A simple solution (for HW engineers – I don’t know the SW market) is to set up a server where unemployed engineers can post their resume and companies would first have to decline (for good reasons) relevant and competent resumes before they hire an H1B. If you’d like, I can cite you an example of a manager at a BCOM owned company that hired a girl from India who had no understanding of the job. He hired her just to keep her in the country while she continued to look for a job that fit her degree. Better yet, I have been granted more than 10 interviews with QCOM and Marvell since 2005 when I put a foreign name on my resume. Neither of those companies have granted me an interview with my very common English name. I don’t believe in protectionism but when some top notch engineers are not even being interviewed then you don’t have a meritocracy. Also, labor statistics that show Americans out of work for YEARS at a time, pokes a hole in the idea that a totally free market is best. When Adam Smith wrote the wealth of nations, people died if they didn’t work – they literally would starve. So if they lost their job, they transitioned as fast as possible to the next job. Today, when American workers are displaced not all of them transition immediately to other jobs or jobs that pay as much. Some burn through their retirement funds or accept gov’t assistance. They are not forced to make an instant decision that leads to food on the table. Yes, in theory Adam Smith is right, but today, in the US, (right or wrong) it’s not the reality for many people.
>> When Adam Smith wrote the wealth of nations, people died if they didn’t work – they literally would starve. So if they lost their job, they transitioned as fast as possible to the next job
Another one from him – “If in the same neighbourhood, there was any employment evidently either more or less advantageous than the rest, so many people would crowd into it in the one case, and so many would desert it in the other, that its advantages would soon return to the level of other employments. This at least would be the case in a society where things were left to follow their natural course, where there was perfect liberty, and where every man was perfectly free both to choose what occupation he thought proper, and to change it as often as he thought proper. ”
Apparently, it’s only the corporations that are free to choose who bring to do the work and from where (perfect liberty exists only for them). These labor “issues” have been around atleast since 1700s and I guess will continue for few more centuries.
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Official U.S. policy is that immigration must not harm the employability or wages of those already here. It may not live up to that goal, but it is indeed the official goal. This is not a radical idea.
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Where are you getting this “free market” idea?
I can’t import pharmaceuticals from Canada, India or China. I can’t move to China, India or Germany and look for a job.
We are not “free market”. The antithesis,
– federal import of labor, both illegal and indentured
– industry subsidies, as cash, contracts, industrial facilities expenses distributed to all tax payers such as seaports, intermodal facilities, etc. etc.
This isn’t free market, it’s free load market. And looking at the cabinet picks, I’d say our democracy has be turned into direct oligarchy.
you ignore one major problem.
THE MARKET is America.
Our corporations annual and quarterly financial reports break down their revenue by geographic segments.
A careful analysis of any of these companies revenue shows that their market is america.
Denying them the ability to sell their products/services in america by a government willing to stand up for “The People” will quickly make them change course.
We just need to find and elect those that realize that the balance between capital and labor has to be maintained and nurtured
>> THE MARKET is America.
Yep. But their argument seems to be that the market is their county(ies) for making defense deals with America. The (unwritten) rationale for collateral damage seems to be “x” American jobs and then some more for a sale of one F-16 (via H1s and what not)…
Darn politicians/cartel/think tanks/economists!
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Does the government have to fill the annual H1B quota (65k and additional 20k)? Ms. Yu’s article – as well as other articles I’ve read – says that the USCIS has become more stringent in reviewing applications. I’d like to see USCIS only grant half of that quota and see what US companies do. I’m sure they’ll find that US citizens are suddenly qualified for their job openings.
I read this blog called “Ask The Headhunter” by Nick Corcodilos, and in a recent post titled “M.I.T. Calls B.S. on Skills Gap” (https://www.asktheheadhunter.com/11042/skills-gap) he references an article title “The Myth of the Skills Gap” in the M.I.T. Technology Review (https://www.technologyreview.com/s/608707/the-myth-of-the-skills-gap/) by Andrew Weaver at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.
Some of the findings and quotes from both articles:
– Three-quarters of manufacturing plants surveyed complained they couldn’t hire skilled workers.
But less than a quarter of them actually had job vacancies of three months or more.
– IT departments complained of dramatic problems in filling help-desk jobs.
But only 15% of IT help desks reported “extended vacancies in technician positions.
– Advocates for STEM education clamor for more workers with more “science, technology, engineering, and mathematics skills.”
But Weaver’s data “show that employers looking for higher-level computer skills generally do not have a harder time filling job openings.
– Those who blame a skills gap also cite a lack of “soft skills” among younger workers — the ability to cooperate and to work on teams.
But Weaver found the challenge for employers, even in manufacturing and help-desk jobs, is finding higher-level reading and writing skills.
– The problem isn’t with workers. The problem is employers “promoting unproductive hand-wringing and a blinkered focus on only the supply side of the labor market — that is, the workers.”
– Employers are not cooperating with those who teach skills to workers; for example, colleges and other training institutions.
– Employers are not investing adequately in employee training and development. “Only half of U.S. plants provide formal training to their production workers,” reports Weaver. Twenty years ago, 70-80% did.
Weaver’s solution as he states it:
“Instead of fretting about a skills gap, we should be focused on the real challenge of knitting together the supply and demand sides of the labor market. Thinking about the real financial and institutional mechanisms necessary to make, say, apprenticeships work is far more productive than perennially sounding alarms about under-skilled workers.”
I truly think – and have said many times before – that besides checking if the H1B candidate is qualified for the job in their review process, the USCIS should first check if there is no American who can fill the job. They have to do this by looking beyond the BS job description or whatever is attached in the LCA: eg requiring 12 yrs of experience as an Oracle DBA when 9 yrs of experience is more than enough, etc. or considering candidates with transferable skills, eg a PL-SQL programmer can do work as a T-SQL programmer, etc.
This will require more work or staffing at the USCIS to do these more detailed reviews and lawmakers tend to back away and prefer laws that can run on autopilot.
I propose perhaps have an out-of-the-box approach by crowd-sourcing the vetting of the job needing a foreign worker. Every H1B application by a company gets posted on the USCIS website and American workers pick apart the job description and requirements and the claim by the company that they can’t find anyone who is a US citizen. Only when there’s low to no complaints from US workers does the application process move forward to vetting a foreign worker as a candidate.
Or simply, as I said at the top, grant only half of the H1B quota and see if companies find that US citizens are suddenly qualified for their job openings. If American workers start to get hired, then get rid of the H1B visa entirely as it wasn’t needed after all.
Just so that we are all on the same page: Except for H-1B-dependent employers, a firm does NOT have to give hiring priority to Americans. That’s the law.
Thanks for pointing that out. It is appalling. Even more so is that everyone – mostly politicians and the media – keeps regurgitating the narrative that we are bringing in these foreign workers on the H1B because we can’t find qualified Americans for these jobs.
Also, if an H-1B-dependent employer is defined as one with 15% or more H1B employees, how do Indian ITSF companies like Infosys have 90% H1B employees? The law would have prevented these companies from getting to this high ratio. What’s the ratio at FB or Google? Even if it’s at 40%, the law should have prevented this as well.
An H-1B-dependent employer, as I said, merely has to jump through more hoops. There is nothing in current law to prevent an employer from having 90% of its workers as H-1Bs. Those employers also hire a lot of L-1s.
We can safely say that the percentage of H-1Bs at Facebook is greater than 15% (current threshold) but less than 20% (threshold under the Issa bill, which was clear put there for Facebook).
The percentage is misleading anyway, as it counts all the clerks, accountants, groundskeepers and so on. It ought to apply only to technical staff.
“Does the government have to fill the annual H1B quota (65k and additional 20k)?”
Those two caps are for general industry. There is _no_ cap on H1B hires for: education, research, government work or medical. Nor a cap on any H1B with an employment based green card application pending.
>> Nor a cap on any H1B with an employment based green card application pending
There *is* a cap on greencard applications that is based on the country of birth. Fortunately for the cartel, that cap is a very small one – 7% per country per year out of ~140k employment based greencards that can be given out in any year. 7% sounds very nice when looked in isolation, but combine it with feeder H1/other visas, it guarantees a life long wait for Indians which is exactly the cartel wanted to begin with.
Increase the H1 to 200k with Issas SKILLs proposal (along with the fake reform of HR 170 that recently passed out of committee) and NOT touch the country caps, rest is upto our imagination as to what it can happen to our workforce (of whatever is left).
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This notion of these foreign workers here on the H1B as ‘the best and brightest’ needs to be dispelled.
I pointed out a while back a story titled “Companies ruined or almost ruined by imported Indian labor”. It has a long list of companies and projects damaged by the incompetence of these H1B workers. Just do a google search for this article and you’ll see the list. It is appalling.
I don’t know why everyone is still saying that H1B workers are ‘the best and brightest’.
The official line, among the industry lobbyists but even among those who are critics of H-1B, is that the H-1Bs you are referring to are from the Infosyses, while the ones at the Intels are doing wondrous things for their employers. Of course, none of that is true.
Brian Moynihan, CEO of Bank of America, on Charlie Rose, the “easiest” way to stimulate the economy is with foreign workers and immigrants, because they buy things when they move here.
Bloomberg, on PBS/NewsHour, but we know it costs citizens unemployment.
“Best and brightest” is the cover story for the politicians’ political purposes.
That is a very common argument (“they buy things”), but obviously fallacious. What, Americans don’t buy things? Come on. And what about the reduced tax revenues when an H-1B replaces an American at half the salary?
Whenever I hear such arguments, I ask, “So, if immigration is so good, why not have as much as possible? Do you support open borders?” Then they back down.
The reduced tax revenues are heaped up onto the federal deficit, presumed to be paid by the 99%’s next gens.
And a huge fallacy is using the word “immigration” and “immigrants” to define foreign workers. They aren’t “immigrants” – as in “Welcome to America, here’s your green card”, they are employer selected and employer indentured second class workers.
Regarding, false arguments,
– If they are best and brightest on the planet, a) why aren’t they paid accordingly? and b) offered better salary than the relative pittance their US employer is paying them?
– If the US lacks skills and workers for “jobs Americans won’t do”, how is it they aren’t defaulted to green card, true “immigrant”, upon arrival?
>>And a huge fallacy is using the word “immigration” and “immigrants” to define foreign workers. They aren’t “immigrants” – as in “Welcome to America, here’s your green card”, they are employer selected and employer indentured second class workers.
Foreign workers are “immigrants” if those workers are NOT India born. They pretty much get their green cards within 1-2 years of their arrival.
>> how is it they aren’t defaulted to green card, true “immigrant”, upon arrival?
This may soon become reality if ‘staple a green card’ idea of IEEE and the cartel goes through our beloved Congress.
The wait for a green card is quite long for some of them. But still, they are NOT immigrants. One can call them immigrant hopefuls.
>>The wait for a green card is quite long for some of them. But still, they are NOT immigrants. One can call them immigrant hopefuls.
And that’s what I said — Non-India borns “hope” to get their greencards in 1 or 2 years
and they do get their greencards, whereas India borns will remain “hopeful” for their entire lives and still dont get them — And yes, during this “hoping” period, no one can be called an “immigrant”, by definition.
I’m smart and educated. If I’m not qualified to overstay a visa live permanently in China, who is?
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Having lived in India for a decade or so, I completely agree with many of the posters on the less-than-stellar work ethic amongst majority of the folks from that country. My only concern is that people seem to be conflating Indians with the Chinese. The Chinese, in my experience, are genuinely efficient and most definitely have a very high throughput once they are trained properly. This is different from Indians where there is neither high productivity nor any innovative contributions to any workplace. It’s just about copying everything from their Western counterparts and getting ahead by maintaining a facade of efficiency and passion.
My concern with the Chinese is the theft of intellectual property and abuse of government research funds.
Wow, if Indians were so terrible why did you dragged on for 10 years with them. In fact, your comment and in general this site spews hatred towards Indians. You think they should keep on doing mundane jobs, take orders and put in hours. Indians will never do that, we’re not asians and chinese. You think if Indians ask for promotions, pay raises, change jobs and are more upwardly mobile its unproductive, go and drink some kool aid.
“… in general this site spews hatred towards Indians.”
I’m very sorry you feel this way. I can understand why you do, but the fact is that in most cases I simply refuse to approve a posting that expresses racial hatred. Unfortunately, your post here, which seems to express revulsion for East Asians, will be an exception. I’m allowing it because I want to show how one minority can have unhealthy attitudes toward another.
Great then, one point I missed adding in previous response is that if Indians were so unproductive compared to chinese, why is it then more R&D centers (as well as number of personnel) of American companies are in India compared to China. And I’ve read quite a lot of your material, and you do’ve a more favorable attitude towards chinese compared to indians for reasons unknown.
The answer most people would give to your question is that the Indians speak English.
There are offshore US development centers for cost and language reasons, however, very little significant research is done over there by any US company (or any Western company for that matter). Just look at any ranking of published research worldwide to get an idea of the real position of India when it comes to authentic research. Here is one sample:
>> There are offshore US development centers for cost and language reasons, however, very little significant research is done over there by any US company (or any Western company for that matter)
Those are the jobs that should have been *here* to begin with. It’s the GEs/Intels of *this* country that have opened up shop there. Does not matter if its top notch research or not. It’s just that we lost that many middle/low income jobs from our economy.
Ravi, its not that we are against foreigners. The biggest complaints we have is:
1. US Citizens are losing high-paying jobs.
2. Generally this is happening to people 40+ which have a harder time finding new employment
3. They also lose benefits, health care, pensions and a chance for a secure retirement.
4. Often times the replacements are not as educated, experienced or talented
My biggest complaint is the ethics issue. The US and many Western countries are based on “The Rule of Law”. The 3rd World seems to based on “Every Man For Himself”. While I met corrupt citizens, H1Bs with ethical challenges are easily 3x in quantity. Among my experiences have been:
– H1B attempting to hire a hitman to kill his immigration officer
– H1B manager fired for getting kickbacks from H1B DBAs under his management
– H1B worker fired after 2 days due to having no IT skills and getting the job after someone else did the telephone interview for him
Also, I invite you to look into the Office of Personal Managment (OPM) and Wright State scandals. They should be on Norm’s site. These are serious scandals that affected a lot of Americans.
While not as serious, I and my co-workers, as well as most of the website’s contributors, have encountered numerous incidents of lying. Not just little lies, like 5 years of Oracle when they only have 1, but big ones. You can read my post above about the idiot DBA who still can’t update a database after 4 years. My wife and my H1B co-worker’s wife both heard that idiot on the phone. Both independently said “That lady is not IT!”
That also points out another fact about us. We don’t dispute that some H1Bs deserve to be here and are contributing to the workplace. But bringing in others that are mediocre or are crooks, frustrates those that have or may lose their jobs in the process.
If thousands of Americans or other foreigners came to Bangalore and did the same there would be rioting in the streets.
Shenanegans from both groups include
– a month or more of vacation, off the records
– coworker covering for MIA compatriots at work
– subservience to hierarchy
– lack of ownership of quality defects
– hiring not based on merit
– late arrival and early departure
All? Certainly not. But prevalent and tolerated, at least in engineering domain.
You’re spot on this Norm, its unfathomable how brazenly entitled these immigrants have become. Ms. Yu neither has a stellar engineering or science background, but a rather generalist education. Using tags like Oxford, Stanford and good articulation skills, she is trying to portray a false narrative. As for the MBA class at Stanford as much as 70% of the class every year is international (people willing to pay inflated tuition and higher prices for housing). And wasn’t H1b meant for outstanding scientists and engineers and not generalists like Ms Yu, who paid her way into US and used her connections to get another tag that of “founder of a palo alto based AI startup” (btw, there are 100s of these startups and most of them will fail in a year or two and once that happens Ms Yu will have have gained a green card in the bubble and would be doing a 100K per year job that any qualified american should get).
In addition to this, I’ve done lot of research on GSB’s Sloan MSx program. This mere 1 year program is overwhelmingly international (almost 90%) and backdoor entry for a managerial job into SV bubble companies. There are a ton of LinkedIn profiles with this tag (sloan fellow) now working in various managerial roles at SV bubble companies (in many cases these are Indian or Chinese owned helping their counterpart). While Indian IT companies (and even American companies) are gaming the H1b visas, this gaming is of different order.
That’s another aspect rarely discussed, gaming of credentials, beyond the generic no/low skilled H1B coming in via body shops.
Look at the series 62 Fact Sheets linked from here:
You will find few protections for American workers.
I wonder how many of the startup are bodyshops founded by new green card recipients geared to hiring their friends and relatives for multi-level outsourcing arrangements.
I wish there were greater up front financial obligations for sponsors – i.e. a year of health insurance prepaid for employee and all family members and FICA, federal and state taxes escrowed. I also think that someone who comes on a student visa should be unable to use it for entry and to look for a job. (S)he should be unable to obtain a work visa until after the expected graduation date of the program into which the person enrolled. There should also be a language competency requirement like a TOEFL score equivalent to that required for enrollment into a graduate STEM program at a major state university.
I remained stunned at suggestions that births to guest worker families should be covered by Medicaid because the family found US health insurance too expensive (and it should be at full price without subsidies!!!) and that they should receive entitlements like WIC. The English language skills of some guest workers are woefully inadequate for the business world. The waste of educational resources on individuals who are not serious students harms both Americans and international students who are denied spaces or classes by those using a student visa to remain in the country until they find another position.
>> There should also be a language competency requirement like a TOEFL score equivalent to that required for enrollment into a graduate STEM program at a major state university
TOEFL is already a requirement for enrollment into STEM (or any other course) – Especially for Indians, Chinese that take away lions share of our jobs. TOEFL is another racket run by the schools here.
There is no language requirement for a work visa. Many visas are issued to individuals who have not been educated in the US. There is no requirement that a guest worker be literate and able to communicate. It is assumed they can in their native language in order to obtain an H-1B due to the education requirements.
I have run into international students getting ready to receive a US degree who are unable to communicate adequately in English. For some it is verbal and for others it is written. It is of particular concern when health and safety of living creatures is involved in the position they will hold.
>> There is no language requirement for a work visa.
Absolutely correct — A H1 from India can enter into this country just as a model from Slovenia can enter on a O-1 or a tennis player from Timbuktu on some other alphabet visa without knowing any English.
Frankly American companies make more by selling their products in India, than Indians make here in the USA being on H1-B (I am not talking about trade here). I love America, even though I am on an H1-B. My American colleagues were ready to talk to senators etc. if something happened to my visa renewal. That’s the respect I command on my team, and I genuinely love this country.
But if the US becomes protectionist, I am sure India will send all the American companies away and shut that large market out. Indian companies don’t sell a lot of products in the USA.
The balance of trade might be today in India’s favor by a small margin, but I am sure American companies dont want to lose access to a growing market.
Most Americans simply don’t care. They want their jobs. Simple as that.
Mr. Matloff, with all due respect I think Americans have every right to have access to better jobs, I don’t deny that fact at all. However, if you look at the revenue profile of a lot of American companies, a lot of revenue comes from outside of the US market, on an average around 50-60%. Microsoft where I worked earlier has a 50-50 mix between US revenue and foreign revenue.
I generally use a ratio called AmericanMarketRevenue\ForeignEmployeeCount, and its accurate most of the times where the GEO-Revenue is always proportional to the number of foreign employees.
America is full and full a capitalist country and that’s why all these social effects are seen, where wall street does not care about human employees. Why are these American companies chasing profits ? Because Wall street wants to have the stocks high. The foreign born talent is just a scapegoat in this entire game. Cost of labor is like water, it will flow to the lowest elevation. Germany still hasn’t lost its well paying Manufacturing jobs, because the govt regulates it , and its mostly a socialist country.
Technically you should be focusing on the empty shell of a manufacturing industry that the US is now currently vs the 1% of the labor market occupied by foreign born talent.
The GDP has grown multiple times over since the H1B laws were passed, except the american oligarchy fails to share the wealth. So all the anger is misdirected. The H1B sure needs to be regulated and tightened up as Indians find every loophole to cheat and defraud the US govt.
The unemployment in the tech industry is close to 4% which is not too big of a number. As far as I have seen any American who has skills and is willing to move places has no dearth of jobs to pick from. Right at this moment there are 5 million unfilled tech jobs available all across the US.
This beloved country is still surviving on Chinese debt, and that does not bode well for us in the long run.
I think you accidentally omitted some of your posting. You said that big U.S. companies have a lot of foreign revenue, but you didn’t explain how you are connecting that to the H-1B issue. What did you have in mind? Surely you didn’t mean that since, say, Facebook, has a lot of revenue from India, Facebook ought to hire Indians, did you? I assume not, since you crudely demean Indians in your posting here. (An odd attitude for someone using the pseudonym ImmiAdvocate, don’t you think?) Assuming the answer is no, what did you mean?
That argument about “flowing water” just plain…doesn’t hold water. 🙂 Are you in favor of open borders, no restriction on immigration at all? Again assuming the answer is no, then your argument doesn’t work.
That claim of low unemployment is a standard industry lobbyist talking point. The fallacy in it is that it fails to account for the people forced out of the field. The former engineer now working as a sales associate at Best Buy counts as EMPLOYED, but she is clearly UNDERemployed. Your claim that “Any American who has skills and is willing to move places has no dearth of jobs to pick from” is just plain false.
The common thread in the couple of posts by ‘ImmiAdvocate’ is that theme about connecting trade with immigration which is precisely the disingenuous argument that is being heavily promoted by immigration lawyers and lobbyists for Indian IT companies.
I am an Indian who has loved the USA since I was very small, and even did not know about the H1B visa. I have US flags all over my desk, car etc, if that tells us something. I did not take any American’s job when I came here, and was brought in to share my deep technical expertise and train up my American colleagues, who I find to be the best people to work with. Even starting mid this month, I am going to coach up an entire team of engineers to up skill them technically. In no wise I am meaning that the American engineers are less smarter than I am. Its just plain information asymmetry where I understand some areas of our code deeper than them. And I did not come at a cheap cost to my company, I am a very expensive resource.
When I meant Labor flows to the lowest cost locations, I meant today its India, tomorrow it maybe some other low cost country, that will take away American jobs. As long as the capitalist Wall St powers that be don’t realize that they have a social obligation to help the American society they are thriving in, this situation is not going to change. America is a pure Military-Industrial Oligarchic setup unlike a lot of European countries, which rank very high on the UN HDI. rankings. But yes, still I love the USA and am willing to serve in the armed forces here at the drop of a hat.
I have tried to coach waiters in restaurants to come into the IT field by giving them material, and lessons on how to make a better living, but I was not very successful. Thats a story for another time.
What I find concerning is that a very respectable and highly intelligent professor is buying into politician’s rhetoric, and I might be wrong but I expect intelligent people to be balanced in their opinion.
“That argument about “flowing water” just plain…doesn’t hold water. 🙂 Are you in favor of open borders, no restriction on immigration at all? Again assuming the answer is no, then your argument doesn’t work.”
That was not what I was implying, I meant businesses will find some way to cut the cost of two important things they use to produce value, Labor + Material, and in this case they are cutting labor costs without any respect for the society they are operating in. Why have you not addressed the manufacturing part that I had talked about in my earlier comments.
A lot of Indians cheat, and I like to call a spade a spade. I am writing on a pseudonym to avoid any legal complications by expressing my personal views on the internet.
“The former engineer now working as a sales associate at Best Buy counts as EMPLOYED, but she is clearly UNDERemployed. Your claim that “Any American who has skills and is willing to move places has no dearth of jobs to pick from” is just plain false.”
Do you have any data points or any statistical source that pertains solely to the tech industry where people formerly employed as engineers are underemployed now ? My company had layoffs and everyone was laid off including H1Bs. The American colleagues each got jobs within two weeks despite some of them being over 40, because ageism has become a trend in the IT industry.
So I will be glad to look into any data that backs your claim that former engineers with current skillset relevant in the market are underemployed.
Technical skills are not fungible a lot of times, and a good coder in C might not be that great when it comes to using more abstract languages under normal circumstances, unless he puts in a lot of effort to overcome older habits and adapt to new conventions in the newer language.
I have published various research papers that give you all the statistics you want. You might start with http://www.epi.org/publication/bp356-foreign-students-best-brightest-immigration-policy and http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/MigLtrs.pdf I’ve been researching this for nearly 25 years, contrary to your view that I am “buying into politicians’ claims.”
The age problem is real, and has been studied by many, not just by me. Among other things, the report commissioned by Congress (though of course ignored by them) and conducted by academics without a vested interest found this. I have seen numerous individual examples to complement the data, and have served as an expert witness in litigation, in which I saw data for prominent companies.
You are in no position to claim that your hiring did not come at the expense of a qualified American.
So Americans who have rational arguments for controlling immigration into their country are “buying into a politician’s rhetoric”? How idiotic.
Secondly, you seem to be making a big issue about your love for the US in a number of your posts. Just so you understand, other than a few folks in a few countries which are governed ideologically, people in most other countries do love the US. That’s why there is a long queue of folks from around the world waiting to immigrate into the US. This does not mean everyone who loves America should gets a free pass to settle in here.
Lastly, let me just point out that Americans have always been and continue to be pioneers in the field of software (almost all programming languages/platforms and runtime frameworks have been created by Americans with a few contributions from Britons and Europeans) and it’s extraordinary that you seem to think you are indispensable to the US software industry. You haven’t said it in so many words but that ‘s the attitude you are projecting through your posts. Among other issues, this is exactly the sense of arrogance and entitlement that is hardening American attitudes towards foreign tech workers.
@Mr. Matloff. I now remember reading those studies a few years earlier and the ones by Prof Ron Hira as well. That’s the reason I mentioned about the cut throat capitalist setup our country is. A capitalist economy fundamentally works for profit, and corporations will buy politicians to enact policies that will help maximize their profits. So even if I agree with your studies and others, I would still say the guest worker programs are the symptom rather than the cause. So unless this setup changes fundamentally, corporations will find onr or the other way to cut costs, including relocating their headquarters to avoid taxes. The average American also buys the stock of these companies and expects the stock price to go up. The majority of the H1B applications are from foreign grad students. Why not make it clear they cannot work here after school, you would not, because foreigners pay out of state tuition, and that’s a big source of funding for the US universities. Or rather why are US universities allowed to admit the averagely talented foreigner ? Make a rule that except for the top 20 US universities no other university can enroll foreign students. Problem fixed. Have you tried recommending that anytime ? And the complication is what’s good for business is not always good for the society and vice versa. That’s another whole debate. On one hand we worship business leaders like Jack welch as business geniuses who actually fathered such outsourcing programs and on the other hand the foreign workers who are players are denigrated which to me is not fair.
Mr. Carville, . Going by your claim only the Red Indians are the ones who technically belong to the USA. I have read the history of those violent resettlements and its not pretty.
I did not intend to trumpet any achievements, but was trying to point out I was working for my company abroad and was transferred here to contribute effectively to the local team in USA. Try telling recruiters you are on an H1B for a month and let me know how many job offers you got.
You are presuming that I would not support such-and-such a policy. You are way, WAY out of line in doing that. Please stop.
What I do support is on record: We should limit the H-1B work visa and the employment-based green cards to the Best and the Brightest, meaning the current O-1 visa and EB-1 green cards, respectively, both of which I support broadening somewhat in scope. OPT should be rolled back to its original one-year level, or eliminated entirely. H-4 work rights should be preserved but counted toward the H-1B cap.
I have stated publicly that the result of this policy would be that many fewer international students would come to the U.S. for study. The ones who would still want to come here, other than those of O-1/EB-1 caliber, would be students from the developing world who wish to learn skills here that they will take back home to help their nations.
There have repeated news stories over the years that Congress and/or the President is going to cut back on the H-1B program. NEVER have such stories negatively affected the stock price of Google, Facebook etc. or the tech sector summary measure, NASDAQ. But as I have tried to tell you, most Americans wouldn’t care, because they don’t like American jobs taken by foreigners. EVERY major candidate in last year’s election, in both parties, expressed concern about this.
>> We should limit the H-1B work visa and the employment-based green cards to the Best and the Brightest, meaning the current O-1 visa and EB-1 green cards, respectively, both of which I support broadening somewhat in scope
Be careful what you wish for. It’s a *fact* that EB-1 is massively abused by Infosyses to a point where this category is being ‘retrogressed’ for India borns (through L-1A Managers).
I know you mean the true Einsteins aka in EB-1A category should be relaxed, but the annual quota does not distinguish EB-1C (most abused) to its other sibling categories.
Imagine a true Einstein (are there still any left out there?) coming on EB-1A gets his/her greencard in the same way as that of a hardly school educated india born that Infosys/Intel sends over here?
EB-1 is already watered down as things stand today – Please do not advocate for diluting it further as it will be parroting cartels’ narrative – Long wait times for the hopefuls in EB-1 greencard as well.
In other related news, a DC judge has asked DHS to go ahead with “Entrepreneur Parole” rule that was doled out by previous administration, but delayed by the current one. VC lobby (as part of the cartel), is very very powerful it seems – Can anyone imagine how this impacts the greencard queues?
I highly value your opinions and studies and its remarkable that we could have a great discussion without resorting to any personal attacks this entire time, which is so unlike a lot of online forum discussions.
I think you and I are on the same page regarding the above mentioned topics. I completely understand the merit of what you had to say, but my overarching conclusion is businesses and shareholders in America will only work to line up their pockets. Which definitely saddens me to put it mildly.
What are your learned thoughts on outsourcing and the gutting of the american manufacturing industry ? Can any steps be taken to bring those jobs back ? As I think that will be a very quick inflow of well paying jobs into the US economy.
I don’t have much to say about manufacturing, other than its outsourcing brings only a very small benefit to consumers.
It’s amazing how several disingenuous statements are being supported by some casual untruths like “Majority of H1B applications are from foreign grad students”. The overall argument seems conveniently self-serving for foreign workers who have landed here on the temporary work visa without going through the rigors of the grad school process.
It doesn’t matter where the applications come from.
True Norman, not at all arguing on this. However, there have been some reports recently (e.g. http://www.siliconbeat.com/2017/08/02/apple-h-1b-workers-average-139000-pay-outsourcers-dominate-visa-program-pay-far-less/) on the quantity of visas issued to grad school folks versus the ones brought over here directly from third world countries and who is hiring them and how much they are getting paid, so just wanted to make sure that I point out at least one glaring chicanery in the comments you are receiving from this poster.
As I have said many times, the H-1Bs hired by Apple, Facebook etc. tend to have master’s degrees from U.S. schools while the Infosyses hire bachelor’s degree holders from India. So of course the first group is paid more — but they are still bargains compared to Americans of the same caliber For some reason, it’s hard to get people to understand this simple point.
Thanks Norman, I have also seen numerous examples of folks being brought over here from third-world countries through IT companies and after working for a couple of years they jump ship to join an American Company for a much higher salary. I have not seen any reporting in any media on this particular case and, at least anecdotally, it seems an extremely common situation. Any thoughts on this?
I would rather have all countries’ products and services be “homegrown” whenever possible. It is important that all workers be able to sustain themselves and all people have access to goods, services and infrastructure for a safe and healthy life. It is inexcusable for the developed world to take the educated and industrious from Third World nations because they will work cheaper just to move elsewhere.
Back up a bit, you don’t have to have a green card to be a startup.
A mere $50 to register a company name and shazam!, you’re a “startup”.
Back up a bit, it’s not a “suggestion” that foreign workers are entitled to subsidized healthcare while here, it is a fact, and that includes all foreign workers, H1B, OPT, L1, etc.
H1B, and others, can change their visa status, as student, or tourist, or (?), to stay and look for another job.
>>Back up a bit, you don’t have to have a green card to be a startup.
A mere $50 to register a company name and shazam!, you’re a “startup”.
Agreed that buying a .com domain/registering LLC can be done by anyone with a credit card, but a proper startup/business *does* need a greencard. The ‘genius’ type (Indian) H1s cannot do that since the law stipulates they cannot ‘sponsor’ themselves and that is why they end up as “co-founders” (even if the idea is completely theirs) and the American cofounder will sponsor the Indian’s H1. A bit complex, but it helps the number crunchers to say that Indians are not entrepreneurs (and they can only be cofounders at the best).
>>H1B, and others, can change their visa status, as student, or tourist, or (?), to stay and look for another job
One can look for another job as long as they are ‘in-status’.
An H-1B worker cannot work for his own startup, just the sponsor of his H-1B. A green card holder does not have that limitation. (S)he also has the ability to work without compensation which is not an option for guest workers.
American workers should not be subsidizing guest workers and their employers via the health care premium rebates. It should be required that even small employers who are not required to provide health insurance for USCs and LPRs should be required to provide health insurance for all workers if they hire or use via body shops – guest workers or their dependents.
If an employer cannot afford to pay the full cost of a guest worker, he should not be allowed to import them.
>> I’ve stated many times that the H-1B work visa should be reserved for “the Best and the Brightest.”
Best and brightest is an euphemism for “youngest, dimmest and dumbest from the east ….. India (and China)” brought in to replace us by the best and brightest among the cartel.
IMO O-1 is for “best and brightest” (and cartel is watering this down as well).
I have been going through your blog and have spent roughly six hours this weekend as I like to understand things deeper.
One great thing I found out is very cool, I just like Bernie and Liz Warren and their message , and see you support them too. If I were a citizen they would get my vote.
As a senator, Bernie has coauthored legislation to restrict the H-1B program.
I had made very clear right at the outset that there are a lot of Indians who game the H1B system, and I definitely want it to be tightened up, and a lot of fear to be instilled. So I am with Bernie\others on that, and I have seen the bill he co-authored. I have also seen all the bills that were introduced this year, some are literally a farce, and would not move the needle even one bit towards achieving any stated goals.
You’ve see the bill Bernie coauthored? Are you sure about that?
My apologies, I mixed up his Immigration Platform and the recent bills in the House and Senate, by Mr.Grassley, Ms.Lofgren and others.
What I read some time ago is here https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/
All said and done, you have found a fan in me from India. I like to take an analytical approach to things, and your data does provide a lot of firepower to what I already believe in “Don’t use H1B as a cheap labor conduit”. It should be used to bring in the “Best and the Brightest, software engineers, architects, doctors, researchers” etc.
Ok, I remember it now, I have been researching on US immigration for a long time now. It was this Bill
that Bernie supported earlier
I also remember he supported the 2013 Immigration Reform Gang Of Eight act as well.
No. He sponsored legislation tightening up H-1B in a narrow but important sector, and it was enacted.
I would be glad to learn of it. Any help in finding it ?
There is no good bill out there that I know of. D-G has had one good provision in the past, but it was the first one to be axed in previous incarnations, and this will happen again, I’m sure (if indeed it is in the new incarnation at all).
Ummm… she lied about the Nobel Prize.
Ms. Yu is a lawyer – she does not possess rare hard-to-find skills that are part of the requirements for a H1B visa. She is not a “rare worker” – there are a lot of out of work corporate lawyers. Why does she have to stay here? The Chinese economy is booming – she can found her Fortune 500 hundred company back in her home land.
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