Noncitizens Are Constituents?

As some of you know, Immigration Voice, an organization of H-1Bs and other foreign workers waiting for green cards, contends that the per-country limit in employer-sponsored green card policy is unfair. Since the vast majority of such green cards applicants have in recent years been Indian and Chinese nationals, the backlog for those two countries can be quite long, especially for the EB-3 category, which is designated for the mediocre rather than “the best and brightest.”

I’ve been neutral on this issue (leaning toward supporting the per-country caps), but one thing I am NOT neutral on is lobbying by noncitizens. IV has retained a fancy lobbying firm, and regularly has its members call and visit members of Congress. This is fundamentally wrong in the first place, but even worse considering the negative impact these workers have on U.S. citizens and permanent residents in the STEM areas.

I hope Congress will keep in mind that these workers, whether deserving of help or not, are NOT constituents.

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97 thoughts on “Noncitizens Are Constituents?

  1. It is better to have them working at meat factories and farms than creating mono-ethnic silos in high-competition professional fields. They are likely highly motivated to come here and work at whatever is offered. As it is, we are overdependent on illegal immigrants for this work. EB3 workers likely have a desperation to leave their home country that will make them assimilate easier.

    Why would you want to restrict EB3 to these larger countries?
    Explain what you know about EB3 please.

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      • I read that EB3 has three categories.
        The category for highly skilled laborers seems suspicious and a duplication of the H1B program.
        I know personally that large number of immigrants are coming in for rural, tourist and food-processing jobs.
        Why not expand this to people from countries with immigration backlogs?
        The Canadian system is a good model. As long as the prove fluency and significant education, they can come. Pair this with an EB3 for a manual labor job and we have a good program that doesn’t displace IT workers.

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        • It’s not just about IT workers.
          Researching using many documentaries, I came across one of the more bizarre “requirements” for a meat processing job – diapers, they must wear diapers because their employer will not let them stop for anything.
          The answer to abusive employers is not feed them foreign workers, is it.
          Every time I look under the hood on a “jobs Americans won’t do” claim, I find unreasonable, unrealistic or out and out illegal expectations.

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          • When I was a kid, the menial jobs in restaurants, fast food restaurants and so on, were typically done by U.S. teenagers, learning the value of work and money. Yet during the last two or three decades, those jobs have been done almost exclusively by Latino immigrants, maybe illegal. Yet I’ve seen in one local McDonald’s the resurgence of U.S. teenagers! There is even a sign saying something like “student workers wanted.” Maybe due to the end of DACA, ICE raids etc.?

            Meanwhile, at In ‘N Out, also a burger chain but one that pays higher wages than McDonald’s, the workers have been U.S. teenagers all along.

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    • “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
      ― Samuel Adams

      We continue to stumble towards revolution.

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      • The Unabomber wrote that human civilization was in a race between tyranny and collapse, and he preferred to accelerate the collapse to avoid an unbreakable tyranny.

        With high-tech spying now integrated into U.S. society, revolution is probably no longer possible. Most people don’t realize that the Patriot Act (and its extensions and successor laws) made every U.S. phone call “pre-tapped”. All the elites have to do is to “unmask” the identities of whichever call or calls they want to observe. No more sending out a technician with a pair of alligator clips and a ladder.

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  2. Unfortunately, nothing new. Look at the huge lobby of AIPAC. Trump’s nominee was ousted partly because of Russia and Turkey lobbying efforts. Isn’t Pelosi called the Senator fron Punjab?

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  3. Ummm… yea. Speaking of the participation of non-citizens in the political process in this country…

    A new political bruhaha made it into the news just yesterday. Apparently, since the U.S. census is used to apportion House of Representatives seats, some evil, nefarious, cruel, and inhumane administration official came up with the Bright Idea of ading the question “Are you a citizen?” to the next census, thereby predictably provoking the expected gigantic (but ludicrous) backlash from the usual assotrment of “immigrant rights” groups, and from various state AGs who fear they may end up with fewer seats in congress if the answers to that question were ever taken into account…

    http://bit.ly/2GgPwpv

    You can’t make this stuff up. It’s just too ridiculous.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. “Since the vast majority of such green cards have in recent years been going to Indian and Chinese nationals, the backlog for those two countries can be quite long”

    That is numerically inaccurate as you are contradicting your own self. The total green cards a year are 140000 for Employment Based immigrant petitions, out of which the country cap mandates that no country can garner more than 7% of the overall cap, which in this case for India and China will be 9800 each. This in no way does qualify as “VAST MAJORITY”.

    I hope your statement was an oversight rather than a purposefully misleading statement.

    This is a capitalist country, and corporations run the show unfortunately.

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  5. The fact that H-1Bs are noncitizens is routinely applied to the U.S. Constitution’s prohibition against “indentured servitude.” The pro-H-1B lobbyists cheerfully proclaim that since H-1Bs are noncitizens the prohibition against indentured servitude does not apply. 😦

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    • It’s just like when I worked at NASA.

      If you invent something, “It belongs to the Government, because this is a federal facility.”
      But if you have a management issue, “There is no civil service protection here; this facility is managed by CalTech (or, insert other private university), a private organization.”

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      • It is not uncommon for employment paperwork signed on first day to designate all invention/patents as owned by the employer.
        Microsoft/Google/Apple got in a heck of a cat fight over Nortel’s patents when Nortel went under. They hadn’t been paying fees to Nortel, but wanted to own them before someone else bought them and charged them through the nose. Finally they formed collaborative ownership, RockStar, and held monopoly.
        Token payment to original inventors by Nortel, $10K.

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  6. They are also allowed to comment on proposed legislation and rules.

    I believe one question that should be asked of all commenters is their citizenship status. If an individual is found to lie in order to make their comment more relevant that any fraudulent claim to citizenship be cause for immediate deportation and permanent, unwaivable ban from the US.

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  7. It is clear that most Democrat (and some Republicans too) members of congress consider illegal aliens as “constituents”, so why not [supposedly] non-immigrant aliens as well?

    And to ResidentAlien’s comment: Yes, illegals count for apportionment, but they do not vote, so should not be considered constituents by the historic meaning of the word. And the concern with the “citizen” question on the census is that it will discourage illegals from filling the form; there is no legal basis for using it to exclude them from the count.

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    • Judge Ginsberg’s statement spoke of the noncitizens having a stake in things, e.g. noncitizen parents with kids in school. That may be true, but it doesn’t mean that the Constitution confers a right to access Congress to everyone with a stake in something. To make the issue clearer, consider Person X, a citizen of Italy who lives in Italy, no residence in the U.S. of any kind, BUT has a child Y who is in elementary school in Topeka. Presumably even Justice Ginsberg would not claim X should be counted in the census! So “has a stake in U.S. affairs” really is a red herring. I don’t doubt at all that the Constitution says the illegals should be counted in the census, but Ginsberg’s remarks were apparently based on flawed reasoning. Since they could form a precedent in the future, I wish she had not been so sloppy. It apparently was a “social justice” vote on her part rather than being based on the law.

      And again, as others have said, being counted in the census is not the same as being a constituent.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. They are took our jobs, why not take our country. American citizen’s are a minority in the tech industry, through the abusive use of demographics, which allowed American citizens to be displaced by a disproportionate number of “best and brightest” one country. It makes prefect sense to attack the political system and fight for a larger by country allotment. It even sounds reasonable, why not reallocate unused allotments to the best and brightest, “i’m not afraid of the country being overrun by too many PhDs”. Scary.

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      • Look no further than 2017 Intel Global Diversity and Inclusion for your answer. If you agree that Intel is be a good representation of the tech industry , then the answer is there. At the bottom that webpage is a bar chart called “A Snapshot Of Our People” with a tab called “Early Career U.S.”. This chart shows that nearly half of that population of ” Early Career U.S.” is Asian; there are almost as many Asians 48.8% as all other populations combined 51.1%. And since Intel only counts people who work for them directly and not people contracted by Infosys or HCL for example then the Asian population could out number all other categories. I would argue that the majority of Asians are young, South Asians on H1B and that all other populations, especially American minorities are at a disadvantage.

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        • Still don’t understand why some feminist or minority organization doesn’t use data like this for a major discrimination lawsuit against SV and the IT companies in general.

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        • “especially American minorities are at a disadvantage.”
          Having been a long term D voter with an ear toward politicians, it was apparent the louder and louder Boston shouted “Diversity!”, the more and more distilled the vicinity workforce became and was anything but diverse. In age, in gender, in nationality. I can only guess this messaging was for the general public because it was obviously not the case at work.
          Americans were surprised, they thought racism was an American thing. They’re not aware of what was imported: caste. And the darker the skin, the lower the caste. Interview of 1 black applicant, in 5 years, dismissed as potential hire for a remarkably petty reason.

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  9. The unofficial (but practical) definition of a “constituent” is:
    1. Anyone who might vote for me
    2. Anyone who might give me money
    3. Anyone who might cause someone else to do (1) and/or (2)

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  10. Its really just time to lobby for the complete abolition of h1b and all temporary visas. I know about the distinctions, the intels versus infosys etc etc, but really the program does nothing for the usa and screws citizens out of jobs. Just abolish all visas!

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    • I agree, for several reasons. First and foremost, there’s nothing “temporary” about it. Second, the terms and justification have been mangled beyond repair. Lastly, there’s nothing in capitalism circumventing inability to compete for labor.

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  11. It is unfortunate that you support indentured servitude. The per-country cap is indeed discrimination of highest order akin to “virtual ellis island” of 21st century. You should not let people inside your country in the first place, but once they are in (legally I might add) you should treat them ABSOLUTELY equally (would you invite 2 guests in your home for dinner sit them at the same table and serve one person fancy steak and other a bowl of mashed potato?)

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    • Sadly, I didn’t let them into my country. Congress, bought off by the industry and AILA, let them in.

      I do believe in diversity. This is not just lip service to excuse my views on the country caps; I have been writing in support of Affirmative Action for many years.

      Angel Island would be a better metaphor here than Ellis Island.

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      • I agree on diversity in schools and workplace make this country special. However, is there value in IT shops becoming 90 plus percent from one overseas ethnic group? This is usually not a problem, but when they begin displacing professionals, have no intention of integrating into society and make their own alien shop, we have something potentially dangerous. They are very likely to continue to bring in other aliens uninterested in integration or contributing to the common good. The unassimilated society they form may eventually cause alienation for them and other professionals. Danger may not be far off. This is not limited to small startups. This is becoming common in select IT departments of corporations, universities and government agencies.

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        • Diversity has become nothing more than a tool used by high tech American corporations to replace mostly older White Americans with cheap labor. Ironically the vast number of people who come here on, H1B come from a country with almost no diversity. If they don’t practice it there, why should we expect them to practice it here.

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      • By that you do agree that they were enslaved in a way by the industry, at least the Eb-3 guys and some Eb-2 as well (especially Indians). And, most wouldn’t have known this (or too busy coding) well into their immigration process about how long they would have to wait (but the corporations certainly did and some in fact created a business model around it by underpaying etc.), put important decisions of their lives on hold. Why keep country-cap for future immigrants then? Also, while the EB-3 are indeed mediocre, at the same time they are still employed that means jobs do exist, and if they cannot stay in the country, the jobs will go overseas. Did you gather any statistics about how many people do American companies like IBM, Accenture, Deloitte (and everyone in between and beyond) employ in India?

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        • I’ve been writing about the (de facto) indentured servitude in tech for 25 years.

          You’re really susceptible to slogans, I see. Have you ever asked yourself why the above employers don’t send ALL their jobs to India? A worker there is even cheaper than an H-1B here.

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          • That’s because that will be only a “operational issue” per se since all the customers are in the origin country. Even if an Indian in India is smarter than people working in America he will still have to look down and keep working. BTW, India itself has changed quite a bit now and even smart(er) Indians don’t do IT services type of jobs (the ones H1b are used for) as also the type of work being outsourced has become more complex over the years. And Indians are building their own companies too!

            This was a slight digression from the topic of original post, that of per-country cap for EB green cards. This is nothing new, one well respected politician (Ron Paul or Uncle Paul) once said “this country has a long tradition of grouping people, then either punishing them or rewarding them based on who they are”

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        • We are well aware it is indenture. About the only ones who’d attempt to justify this would be employers. The visa is literally defined as “temporary” and when “temporary” runs for years, that has been exploited. And that exploitation is carried to a further level of indenture via queuing in Eb wait. Many are then laid off upon getting a green card, because the captivity, not just the lower pay rate, is what many of the employers are after.
          We, the broad public, are not obligated to further this damage to the employment market, by flushing through the “backlog”, particularly when the backlog was created with malice. Malice, by hiring companies, who’ve had their employees train their replacements because they were cheaper, by the Wipros and Tatas who’s entire business model is existing employees train replacements, by many H1Bs who’re in the position to interview and shun citizen applicants, by former H1Bs/now GCs who exploit H1Bs via taking up a body shop role (charge them for their visas and are not paying them their LCA stated wages).
          Country caps are there to avoid balkanizing the country, and by the looks of Edison, NJ, it looks like that’s failed.

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    • Yes, it is indentured servitude. Temporary work visas of all types need to be axed.
      As guests they’ve exploited and overstayed their welcome, regardless of industries’ invitation, and need to go home, in the public’s estimation.
      Additionally, they need to ask why their own countries can’t come up with something better than human trafficking for economic benefit.
      http://www.marketwatch.com/story/in-india-british-leader-theresa-may-preaches-free-trade-2016-11-07

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    • “you should treat them ABSOLUTELY equally”
      And, before I move on, isn’t near 100% of H1Bs going to Asians, and isn’t this glut of H1Bs BECAUSE of racist hiring? You’re comment is incredibly hypocritical.

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    • Non-citizens, even those in the country legally, should NOT have the same rights as citizens. They do not have the same responsibilities. Only when you can be drafted to be on the front lines in a war should you have the rights of citizenship.You can speed your citizenship by serving in the military. Are you willing to die for the US?

      Individuals who CHOOSE to come to the US know the rules. If you do not like them, fell free to choose to go elsewhere.

      By the way, everyone who made it to Ellis Island was not admitted. My grandmothers little sister was ill after the ocean voyage in steerage (her twin died enroute). Even though her mother had already been admitted many months earlier and was able to support the children, my grandmother’s sister was not admitted and died in the Ellis Island hospital without the rest of her family. She was 7.

      So you can whine all you want. You are NOT equal to a US citizen.

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      • >> Individuals who CHOOSE to come to the US know the rules. If you do not like them, fell free to choose to go elsewhere.

        Huge flaw .. If X goes “elsewhere”, Y will take his/her place and that is no different than status-quo. Secondly, these rules are crafted by the cartel. I wonder how many of us like those rules.

        A moratorium on all alphabet visas should be a starting point for ‘bargain’ from American workers standpoint. And then, see how far the discussion goes. Don’t understand why the folks that “have our back” fail to project this one simple, one liner as their proposal ..

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    • My response to your dinner analogy is that my neighbor without my consent invites a guest for dinner at MY house. You expect me to treat an uninvited guest as I would my family and friends. Get real.

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  12. >> an organization of H-1Bs and other foreign workers waiting for green cards

    you seem have solid proof that it is NOT made of citizens or LPRs; or was it a sleight of hand?

    >> Congress, bought off by the industry and AILA, let them in.
    in other words, the ‘cartel’..

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  13. You are way behind on this issue of foreigners lobbying the gov’t. Even worse is the practice of dual citizenship and their lobbying of the gov’t. Where is the alliance of dual citizens? Dual citizens are worse because they can actually vote in two jurisdiction against the interests of America.

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    • I’ve been writing about this for a long time, actually. Up until about the mid-90s, for instance, the KMT government in Taiwan was quite active in getting their people into the corridors of power in the U.S., to advance Taiwan/KMT interests. I’m talking about university presidents, high-level corporate executives and so on. And though one must give up citizenship in the old country when naturalizing in the U.S., there is no law against your regaining your old citizenship afterwards.

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    • >> Dual citizens are worse because they can actually vote in two jurisdiction against the interests of America

      Indeed.. And they are already citizens here – So they can voice however they wish to.

      But, the ones causing problem are the non-immigrant/”open borders” workers (read: Indian nationals) who are contacting their congressional representatives as constituents; and thus are steering the discussion of policy making in our country (that would go against interests of our country/workers) —-

      Remember, ” … these [non-immigrant], India born workers, whether deserving of help or not, are NOT constituents”

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  14. >> They are also allowed to comment on proposed legislation and rules.

    Short version: Cartel controls the narrative regardless of who “comments” or how many comments were put in.

    Long version: The much spoken “H4 EAD regulation”. It would be naive if one thinks that all these non-immigrants and their childhood friends commented “for” it and thus the regulation went live.

    I strongly suspect that it is because the cartel gets a “buy 1 get 1” from backlogged H-1 if they let their spouses work. A good way to evade the lottery.

    On the other hand, here is it’s less spoken (and not contested in courts) sibling – “140 EAD regulation” – where the same non immigrants and their childhood friends commented “against” it, and yet the regulation passed. Why then, did this regulation take effect despite several negative/non-supportive comments? Simple, these non-immigrants get mobility and employers do not like that (there is proof of this somewhere on youtube wherein someone from then Obama adminstration was saying it in an annual DHS Ombudsman conference).

    Here are the regulations in question, and related comments:

    H4 EAD regulation: https://www.regulations.gov/docketBrowser?rpp=50&so=DESC&sb=postedDate&po=0&dct=PS&D=USCIS-2010-0017

    140 EAD regulation: https://www.regulations.gov/docketBrowser?rpp=25&so=DESC&sb=commentDueDate&po=0&dct=PS&D=USCIS-2015-0008

    Sad reality is that the comments do NOT matter. it’s all about folks with real deep pockets — You, me, “them” commenting on rules means nothing!

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      • >> Do you have the link handy

        Ironic that the video seems to have been posted by the same group that you refer to in this post that should be passively muted. The comment is towards the end of the video..”they will change jobs”

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  15. Some individuals who complain about the “indentured servitude” in the US immigration system still support arranged marriages. I find this quite amusing since I can think of nothing more inappropriate in the 21st Century than the “selling” of human beings for financial and/or social (including immigration) benefits.

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    • OMG! You are now going to start expert commentary on South Asian customs! This blog is unbelievable. God forbid an immigrant (I know you guys will never accept the terminology) ever where to say anything, they become entitled but people here can do everything from belittling entire countries and that is still relevant to the “discussion”. Thanks for the education.

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      • Many people who post here and say things you don’t seem to like are immigrants from South Asia (and elsewhere). Your own post here on South Asians, while making a valid point, would be a little stronger if you did not have a Korean e-mail address.

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  16. What about the recent indictments against the Russians for, among other things, “included supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J Trump and disparaging opponent Hillary Clinton” (Washington Post). If this indeed is a crime then so is any non-citizen publicly supporting or disparaging any candidate at the federal level.

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  17. Norm, no Reply on your post, re: teenagers and employment,

    Illegal and H2 visa labor is to teenagers, hospitality services (hotel/restaurant), ag., construction and facility maintenance workers, as H1B/OPT/L1 is to tech., research/PhD, education, government, etc.workers. Same direct damage in employment prospects. All the more pursued and vulnerable, due to their low wage and law illiteracy. Even stronger second hand effect, existing citizen employees are threatened: “I can replace you with 3 of them”, degrading worker legal rights and floats a whole lot of businesses that in all truth, should have died due to ineffectivity.

    Indirect damage, suppresses all wages as it drops the floor. Deeper levels of indirect damage: assistance for underpaid illegal, H2 visa’d and competing citizens.

    Both create yet deeper levels of damage, business transition to focus on increasing bottom line via wage cuts and “immigration” for market growth, passing on the tougher activity, evolving work terms/conditions/productions and innovation. This and other means now pursued as “easy” money.

    I’m hearing of overlords pushing for easy money, far too often, by far too many means. Overall, looks like we’re marching toward 1929, with same recycled methods of Erristocracy.

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    • I’ve brought up my “Hamburger Theory of Immigration” many times over the years, including the comparisons I made here yesterday (comparing McDonald’s today to the time of my youth, and McD’s today o In ‘N Out today). I had another one that is probably no longer valid: Going up the West Coast from San Diego to Seattle, the proportion of teenagers working at McD’s would steadily increase, correlated with the decrease in available immigrants.

      Liked by 1 person

  18. It’s obvious our tech companies favor importing guest workers over diversity.

    I recall when the “google memo” came out, there were many articles stating that google was too white. But it looks like in 2 years, it may no longer have a majority white technical staff. In 4 years, it may not even be plurality white. In 6 years, it may be majority asian.

    https://diversity.google/commitments/
    Here are U.S. statistics for technical jobs at Google:
    2017 white 53%, asian 39%, 3% hispanic, 1% black
    2016 white 57%, asian 37%, 3% hispanic, 1% black
    2015 white 59%, asian 35%, 2% hispanic, 1% black
    2014 white 60%, asian 33%, 2% hispanic, 1% black

    However, here’s one article that mentions too many “whites and asians”:
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/07/silicon-valley-google-diversity-black-women-workers
    “Google may be unequivocal in its “belief” about diversity, but the figures make its shortcomings clear. The company tends to hire white and Asian men over women and other racial minorities.”

    When will the subject of immigration come up? It’s kind of hard to see how they are going to increase hispanic and black employment, if they’re mainly hiring guest workers from Asia.

    Actually, I did find one article bringing up guestworkers and minorities:
    http://www.stltoday.com/opinion/columnists/silicon-valley-is-using-h–b-visas-to-crowd/article_2c3ac63c-360a-5c79-88b2-729d8673aa28.html
    Silicon Valley is using H-1B visas to crowd out American minorities
    By Tom Broadwater Aug 23, 2017

    http://www.epi.org/press/epi-analysis-finds-shortage-stem-workers/
    EPI analysis finds no shortage of STEM workers in the United States
    Press Releases • April 24, 2013

    “Guestworkers may be filling as many as half of all new IT jobs each year.”

    I’m not sure if there’s anyway to know, but it would be interesting to find out what percentage of Google’s new hires are guest workers. Is it more than half?

    By the way, here are the U.S. statistics for all jobs at Google, including non-technical:
    2017 white 56%, asian 35%, 4% hispanic, 2% black
    2016 white 59%, asian 32%, 3% hispanic, 2% black
    2015 white 60%, asian 31%, 3% hispanic, 2% black
    2014 white 61%, asian 30%, 3% hispanic, 2% black

    Here are GLOBAL statistics for jobs at Google, with respect to gender:
    2017: overall: male 69%, female 31% tech: male 80%, female 20%
    2016: overall: male 69%, female 31% tech: male 81%, female 19%
    2015: overall: male 70%, female 30% tech: male 82%, female 18%
    2014: overall: male 70%, female 30% tech: male 83%, female 17%

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    • In 2012, Google kindly hosted about a dozen of us researchers at their main Mountain View campus. We met with a senior engineer (white, presumably U.S.-born) and an HR person (young Indian-American, born in Canada).

      The Google people told us that Google policy is to hire at least x% foreign-born each year. And the white guy told us proudly at lunch, “Look around us — most people don’t look like me.” He was right — but they mostly looked like each other, as they were mostly Indian. The HR woman said to the white engineer, “Have you noticed how many high-level executive appointments lately have been minorities?”, and she ticked off a few names — all Indians.

      The mentality seems to be that as long as nonwhites are hired, it’s “diversity,” even if the nonwhites themselves have almost no diversity. Orwell would be proud.

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      • Another anti-Indian tirade from a person who is in a “noble profession” of teaching, I thought teachers are like judge(s) of society (judge as in the context of court of law) with no bias whatsoever. Do you know how much value Indians have added to Google and how Google’s revenue in India has been increasing manifold over the years? And you beloved People’s Republic of China bans google and all other major American companies, considers US as its sworn enemy, steals its IP while making sneakers and socks (and in same cases electronics), allows only 20 Hollywood movies per year and gives you impression that they are doing all your blue-collar jobs (that Americans don’t want).

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  19. And, I’m 99% sure that Google’s revenue from India is enough to pay for every Indian they might employ anywhere in the world. If not, you’re quite an influential person and with your connection lets do a study on this topic!

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    • I have zero influence, but thanks for thinking so. 🙂

      Please take a deep breath and look more closely at what I and the others are saying. My point was that it is wrong for Google to point to its majority-Indian hiring as “diversity.” It is hardly diverse.

      Glad to hear that Google is making money in India, and yes, it is sad that Google and China got into a spat. (I have stated many times that China is in the wrong there, as well as in numerous other contexts.) But if Google really is favoring the hiring of Indians over Americans and non-Indian foreigners, it is breaking the law, and making money from India certainly doesn’t justify that.

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      • But then, if 10 Indians apply for a certain job at Google (and are also capable to do that job) and only 3 non-Indians apply, the chances of an Indian getting hired are certainly higher. And by the way, even applying plain economic rules as stated above (that of revenue to investment for Google’s revenue from Indian vs investment in Indian personnel) if balance is tipped on Google’s side I see no issue with google having “too many Indians” on their payrolls. Try applying this same principle to other ethnicities!

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        • To quote an overused jibe in a somewhat different context: “What part of ‘illegal’ don’t you understand?”

          Again: Google told us, point blank, that they favor hiring foreign workers over Americans. It’s not a matter of how many applicants they get, or the suitability of the applicants, but simply that being foreign is a bonus when a foreign worker applies.

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  20. If you’re so certain that Google is “breaking law of the land”, why don’t we see legal proceedings against them, they are headquartered in the most litigative country/society in the world, it would be easy to bring them to court over this or is it a hypothetical law thought by a group of disgruntled workers.

    (my last comment hope is passes moderation, also I’ve no dog in any fight whatsoever be it immigration or employment or google only writing comments here as a general observation of these matters)

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    • Actually, the U.S. Dept. of Labor brought a suit against Oracle last year, and may be planning more against others. As you may know, Google and others have been sued in the past, and are currently being sued for age discrimination, which is largely fueled by the H-1B program. I have opined that some cases are unwarranted, but I have testified in some cases, but my observation is that judges tend to be biased in favor of Big Business. The bias occurs not just in final decisions but even more importantly, in judges disallowing requests by plaintiff’s counsel.

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      • Hi Matt, I have been a reader of your blog, but I thought I should say something. When you receive your H1-B visa, there is a pamphlet that is given to you explaining your rights. It says a temporary resident has rights to organize for better working conditions regardless of immigration status. In my humble opinion, asking for fairness in immigration policy falls under better working conditions, since it reduces unfair indentured employment practices, a better work environment.

        After contributing to retirement and social security for over several years while awaiting green cards, many of them did not know the wait is going to be 70 years when they started, nor can they leave all the contribution and walk away. Don’t they have to live when they go back as well? That’s the reason they engage in advocacy. At the end they still do not have a ballot to register their opinion.

        To say they can’t have their voices heard isn’t right, don’t you think?

        Thank you.

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        • They certainly can make their voices heard! They have a Web site, after all, and give interviews to the press. Having access to Congress is a separate issue, though, especially given the fact that their access to Congress is better than that of the Americans.

          As to working conditions, I really can’t be sympathetic until you and the others in your situation explicitly admit that your presence in the U.S. reduces job opportunities for Americans. How about it? Are you willing to say that?

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          • Hi Matt, You are well aware, that H1B can not self petition. To quote an analogy, Why would you invite someone to dinner, and say there less food for your family? After taking the gifts the guest brought, you don’t ask the guest to proclaim the food served is being taken away from your family. I assume that is not how anybody hosts.

            I am sure almost all of them, including me, here in a visa are respectful of the invitation and opportunity. I consider my presence a supplement to the workforce rather than a displacement to native workforce.

            Blame the companies that willfully displace the native workforce. Blaming a group leads to laws like “Chinese exclusion act”. I have personally seen a hiring manager reject American of Indian origin based the name since they wanted to hire only Americans.

            We see law makers assume doctors serving in US already have green cards. If we don’t make them aware, the wait time is 70 years; Nobody bothers, since they assume everything is fine.

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          • To use your metaphor: Someone ELSE invited people to dinner at my house without my permission, resulting in less food for my real dinner guests. Worse, the uninvited showed up WITHOUT gifts.

            Indeed, your use of the “gifts” metaphor is typical of the unwarranted sense of entitlement I see in so many H-Bs. I used to blame only the employers and the corrupt Congress, rather than blaming the H-1Bs themselves, but after seeing the attitudes of many H-1Bs in recent years, I have to blame them too.

            If I understand you correctly, you seem to think there was no qualified, available American who your employer could have hired instead of you. If you believe this, please state so explicitly, and explain to us why you are so sure of that.

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          • I have no idea what process was followed to ensure no qualified American was available, since it happens before you join the company. I assume that was the case, since the regulation requires to ensure that and the fact that the hiring manager told me that they had been trying to fill job for over 6 months. Of course, nobody trained me or provided knowledge transfer. I did not cheat or deceive anyone, nor did I accept a low pay.

            Not everyone in the world will meet the Nobel prize standard. My wife works in a hospital that serves the American community, saving American lives, sometimes for free when she volunteers. Just after getting a green card, my family member now has a medical clinic creating several American jobs.
            We understand we do what we do because that’s right thing to do and not to claim special privileges because of our actions.

            The “gift”, in that context, I was talking about is my participation paying for the social security and medicare which I never will be able to claim, if I leave. Nobody wants to stay at a host, after being told that they are unwelcome, if there was a way get back my contributions. I will gladly leave and take my skills elsewhere where it is needed and appreciated. Maybe someone should lobby congress to return their savings, so people can easily leave.

            I have no sense of entitlement in this country. Keeping other educational and economical factors the same, What I don’t understand is, why my 10 years of contribution does not equate to a person’s 10 years from another country. I am not demanding, I am politely questioning. If asking is entitlement, I am sorry, I guess I do not really understand America.

            After all the someone who invited me was an American “family” member as well.

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          • You seem like a reasonable person, so let me explain to you how the system works — and thus how America works.

            Yes, your manager is correct in saying your job had been open for 6 months before hiring you. What he is not telling you, though, is that DURING THOSE 6 MONTHS, HR WAS LIKELY IGNORING ALL THE QUALIFIED AMERICAN APPLICANTS, especially the ones with 10-15 years of experience. This is because the firm doesn’t want to pay the salary of someone who has 10-15 years of experience; that is why YOUR SALARY IS CHEAP. So the firm set the job description etc. to eliminate those American applicants, e.g. “3 years of experience or Master’s degree.” They may have also wanted to weed out even the younger American applicants, and thus may have also tailored the job requirements to fit your background, rather than setting them solely on the basis of what is needed.

            Pretty disgusting, huh? But it’s even worse than that, because the law and regulations that allow such garbage WERE WRITTEN BY THE AMERICAN IMMIGRATION LAWYERS ASSOCIATION, to benefit themselves. And needless to say, they also benefit from an ever burgeoning green card backlog, so they have no incentive to help people like you.

            Meanwhile, the AILA not only is generous in campaign donations to members of Congress, they fund “studies” showing, ostensibly, that the H-1Bs are filling a dire STEM labor shortage, that the H-1Bs are geniuses, that the H-1B program is vital to America’s maintaining its world tech leadership role, etc. These “studies,” many conducted by university professors whom they pay handsomely for the effort, are then sent to all the newspapers, all members of Congress, and so on.

            So…now you know how the system works. And now you know how America works.

            Liked by 1 person

          • What you said made me ask my manager, if I got the job because I was cheap to hire as a foreigner or because I added value. The response was: “You think you are cheap because you are a foreigner ! You are definitely not cheap! We pay you almost twice as much as the previous person, who was an American. We had to get special approval from the management for justifying your pay”.

            I can believe there will be an American who would take my job if offered $2M/year, but that isn’t fair pay either.

            So how should a hiring manager determine what is fair market pay and determine American resumes are not being held back? How can I as a foreigner ensure I am not replacing an American and that I am being paid a fair wage?

            I do not want to stay when I am unwelcome, but at the same time, I can not just leave because all my savings are here and I do not have way to transfer it to another country without penalties.

            I am not in an unique situation, I know several foreigners who can retire tomorrow, but can’t/won’t since their ability to stay in this country is tied to their work. They want to stay since their children grew up here and are US citizens! Being able to retire in the US after 10-15 years of work is not because someone’s salary was cheap.

            What would you have me and others in my situation, do?

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          • If $2 million per year is the going rate for Americans who have your qualifications — I’m sure you didn’t mean that, but let’s say hypothetically — and you are being paid less than that, then — sorry, no offense meant — but YOU ARE CHEAP. The fact that you are making more than a bus driver is totally irrelevant. Similarly, if your qualifications are much better than the person you replaced, than his/her salary is also irrelevant to this discussion. One has to compare equals to equals.

            Again, I assume that you meant the $2 million figure as hyperbole. But if on the other hand are making, say, in the top 5% of all people in your region and your occupation, then you should apply for a National Interest Waiver, under which you self-sponsor on the grounds of being unusually talented. Since you don’t mention that here, I assume you are just “very competent” rather than “brilliant.”

            The manager’s comment, “We had to get special permission to hire you,” typically means that the job req had originally been set for entry-level, to avoid hiring holder Americans, as I have explained.

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          • Of course $2M was used as a hyperbole. The point I was trying to make is, if that much money is offered (even when the job doesn’t warrant), there will be someone to take it.

            My question is simply, Who should and how to, determine what is fair wage? How do I ensure I am not part of the problem? After all, pursuit of happiness should not be American only right.

            When someone is being offered a job overseas, they have no clue if it is a fair wage from an American perspective. They only know that it is a fair/better choice from their side.

            Assuming that, after working here for several years, you come to know it was not a fair wage, how do you get out of this loop. You have invested too much of your career to get out now. You can only demand a better wage the next time you move.

            My wife was a medical researcher at top medical university. After going thru residency and fellowship in the US, she can’t take her credentials easily elsewhere. She can’t be brilliant independently. She has to settle to be “very competent”, because the job she doesn’t require more. She thinks it is great, but how do you determine, if it is truly great? I don’t think it is that great, seeing how much money her work brings in.

            How do you solve this? Should we just give up all our contributions and just leave?

            On a side note, even when I qualify with a national interest waiver, I am still in the line waiting a decade or more, because I was born in India. It is the same line as I am now. So, why bother ?

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          • If an American is available to fill the job, a foreign worker shouldn’t be hired. Period. If the American demands a lot of money, that by definition is the market price.

            With NIW you would have mobility.

            I’ve already written that NIW etc. should be liberalized.

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        • >> At the end they still do not have a ballot to register their opinion

          Imagine how long it took 19th amendment to get passed – It’s not even about immigration. Same for Civil Rights Act of 1964; Equal Pay Act of 1963 – Now imagine why it took so long and what the arguments were back then “against” the passage of what seems to be slam dunk/no brainer issues

          In my opinion, the Congress will and must continue to listen to all voices on *all* sides… That’s the beauty about our country/democracy …..

          ………………..
          ………………..

          And then, enact what the cartel (aka ‘deep pocket’) dictates 😉

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    • As a technical matter, bringing such “reverse discrimination” suits is difficult, as white Americans are not legally a “protected class” suffering from historic discrimination. As I understand, due to this very few such class actions are allowed to proceed, except when they involve government agencies or quasi-governmental entities – which then brings into the picture the “equal protection” clause of the constitution.

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      • Some years ago, Guy Santiglia, who brought a complaint to the Dept. of Labor based on the hiring practices of Sun Microsystems. Sun retained Roxanne Bacon, one of the absolute top immigration lawyers in the U.S., as defense counsel. Guy was claiming that Sun discriminates on the basis of national origin. But Ms. Bacon said to the judge, in all seriousness, “Mr. Santiglia cannot sue on that basis, because he doesn’t HAVE a national origin.” 🙂

        Like

  21. As someone commented that IT field is “90 plus percent” from one group, this is happening despite having per country limits. So I don’t think per country limits are doing anything with regards to increasing diversity. Workers/students from over-populous countries are not hindered by the long wait times in EB-2/3 process, as can be seen in the FY2017 green card labor certification statistics (70% Asian with Indians at 55%). Looking at the trend posted by one user above, it looks like there is a huge demand of Asians and more Asians are preferred because the Googles (Intels) love them for their immobility etc., which is the most attractive incentive to hire in a less –diverse fashion.

    Could it be that removing per country limit would actually increase the diversity in that, in the new system, all future non-immigrants (call them non-constituents ;)) would have the same chance to be in the indentured servitude albeit for a lesser duration compared to the duration that Indians face today? No paper on this, I guess.

    Why would say, Norm, that the non-constituents have better access than the real-constituents? The majority at the town halls or other events are real-constituents. Access is the same, but as Despicable Congress said above, only the cartels get their wishes while real constituents or non-constituents don’t in the current system. In that respect, it does not matter who you are unless you are ……cartel.

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    • The percentage “from one country,” as you put it, is much higher among H-1Bs than among green card awardees.

      You must be joking about town halls. The questions are screened, and the politicians are deft at avoiding giving real answers to the ones that are allowed through. These non-constituents are meeting one-on-one with the politicians, with real exchange.

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      • I’m absolutely appalled at your insistence that no injustice has been done to people due to country-cap for EB Green cards (or will be in the future). In fact, these people deserve a public apology from highest ranking officials of your government, may be even the president, you should understand that the oppressed will rise some day and their time will also come. Even refugees get green card in 2 years for god’s sake! Yet these people are invited guest workers! But then what can you expect from a country that carried syphilis and other harmful drug tests on a group of people because they looked a certain way!

        (I’m sure this will cut in moderation, if so consider this as a personal message!)

        Like

        • Please explain where you think I said the country cap hadn’t produced suffering among those waiting for a green card. Hey, it’s all public record.

          What I did say, though, is that I find appalling the H-1Bs’ refusal to admit that U.S. citizens and permanent residents have been harmed by the H-1B and related programs.

          I would add that you are certainly not helping your case by your comment “the oppressed will rise some day and their time will also come.”

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          • When the h1b are employed and are given a chance to work in America I don’t think they know or even have time to think anything other than working. For someone to even know that there are aspects of h1b that hurt american citizens they have to spend at least more than 5 to 7 years in America IMO, many don’t even stay in the country that long. And attacking or disparaging workers themselves is not a good idea as well, they just want to do well for themselves and their family.

            And the line you referred to from my previous comment refers to many talented Indians not wanting to come to America any more and stay in their own country, a departure from 10 years back!

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          • You apparently have been here 5 to 7 years, yet you don’t seem to understand it either.

            If people are going to get involved in politics of a country in which they are guests — already an outrageous notion — they have the responsibility of thoroughly learning the issues. And at the very least, they do know that a lot of American tech workers feel victimized. They then blame the victim, like Ritu Chaudhary did here (“Buddha said that it’s not helpful to blame others if you are having problems”).

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  22. And its the American companies that want to save costs, so they hire h1b or outsource many business processes. And without India or Indian workers they will still continue to do so, they have done that in the past and will in the future and come year 2050, it may not be India but IBM will have 150k employees in Nigeria or Ethiopia!

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    • Ravi,

      Your comments frighten me. Threats about insurrection by “oppressed people” like you apparently believe yourself to be are NEVER appropriate. With the current concerns about terrorism, public comments like that will get you reported to officials.

      Comments about MY President are not appropriate. You have no right to demand anything from him or other government officials.

      I do not understand why you remain here when you feel as you have stated.

      You are a guest. Behave like one.

      Like

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